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Thread: Is the American civil war really over??

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    7 SFN...question. You mention several of your black friends who wear Confederate flags on their leathers (I assume you wear them for motorcycle riding...not for soem bizarre rituals!). Do you know why they do? Do they do it as a symbol of a club? A protest against something? Or to honor the memory of the CSA? I would say teh odds are stronger the reason is for 1 or 2 rather than 3.
    Most are 1 and 2, however, one of my black friends(Leonard) and one of my white friends(Mike) each had forefathers that fought for the CSA. Leonard, had a great-great ancestor that was a Missouri Partisan that would help hideout the James gang when they where in the area. Leonard and MIke are not bikers though, so he is reason #3 only. Its all heritage with these guys.

    At rallys I run into bikers from all races wearing the battleflag. I would say it is simply a symbol rebellion or nonconformity. I will admit, it was a bit strange one time at a rally in Fayettville AR, the first time I ran into a group of all black bikers wearing club colors and riding sport bikes with huge flags on thier backs....and they were from Chicago! I would say they were reason #2.

  2. #122
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    I was in Fayetteville last year during bike weekend. I was on a ACW Transmississippi Tour. Never saw so many motorcycles in my life. Sure was glad I was on a bus and didn't have to worry about driving!
    “Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.”
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I was in Fayetteville last year during bike weekend. I was on a ACW Transmississippi Tour. Never saw so many motorcycles in my life. Sure was glad I was on a bus and didn't have to worry about driving!
    You where at Bikes, Blues and BBQ in Fayetteville?! It was awesome!! I was there on Saturday and got to meet Jesse James. That was good time!!)

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    You where at Bikes, Blues and BBQ in Fayetteville?! It was awesome!! I was there on Saturday and got to meet Jesse James. That was good time!!)
    I was in Fayetteville while it occurred. We were on the Pea Ridge/Prairie Grove/Honey Springs circuit. Fayettevilel was where we at breakfast and dinner and slept!

    I would have loved to join in the fun!
    “Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.”
    - Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I was in Fayetteville while it occurred. We were on the Pea Ridge/Prairie Grove/Honey Springs circuit. Fayettevilel was where we at breakfast and dinner and slept!

    I would have loved to join in the fun!
    Here's an idea...Civil war motorcycle touring! I see an opportunity here.

    You didn't happen to visit the Col Saunders museum in Berryville did you? I think we had this convo before come to think of it.

    ..............CRS moment............

  6. #126
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    motorcycle touring | Battlefield Biker?

    Richmond VA Motorcycle Rental-Harley Davidson, BMW, Honda

    You mean like these?

    I couldn't go, though. I would look way uncool with training wheels on my bike....but I'd be happy to drive the beer truck!
    “Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.”
    - Robert A. Heinlein

  7. #127
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    Is ANY war ever REALLY over? Look to the middle east! They (i believe) are born to make war. I just do not understand why... It makes no sence to me, we have more important things to think about and do!

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I couldn't go, though. I would look way uncool with training wheels on my bike....but I'd be happy to drive the beer truck!
    All the world loves the beerman!!! Now that's touring!

    I'd have to take plenty of pictures to remember anything.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Station 22 View Post
    Why is there loyalty to the CSA then? I suspect a myriad of reasons, some as described above. One thing to remember, the Old South is the only part of the country to be defeated and occupied by an opposing army (Indian wars not withstanding). The occupation was not an easy thing to stomach. Here is something else to chew on. It was not a civil war, the South was not seeking to absorb the North; it simply wanted to be a seperate country. In essense, it was no more a civil war than was the US War of Independence.
    If you look up the definition of civil war, the American Civil War fits the definition. Also, the occupation was sparse, with the numbers being very small within 18 months of Appomattox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Station22
    ]In answer to the question of whether I am a Southerner still fighting the War of Secession*, I reply, "Only when fired upon, suh."

    *other more appropriate names for the war: The Second American Revolution, The War of Southern Independence, the War of Northern Aggession & The Great Unpleasantries of 1861-1865.
    I'm not sure whether you're being totally tongue-in-cheek or not, so my answer is as if you're not.

    The Civil War (or as in the Official Records - "The War of Rebellion") started when Fort Sumter was fired upon by Confederates. By action, this contradicts the title of "The War of Northern Aggression." "The Second American Revolution" and "The War of Southern Independence" both invoke language associated with the Declaration of Independence, which is morally at odds with the reasons for Southern secession.

    Interestingly, in the debate in Congress over how to title the ACW, it appears that the two choices were the "Civil War" and "The War Between the States." The portion of debate between the gentleman from the South and the gentleman from the North was quite interesting and civil (pun not intended). Obviously, "Civil War" was the choice that won out.

    Civil War or War Between the States?
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  10. #130
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    I would have to go with "War for Southern Independence" I think it is the most accurate description.

  11. #131
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    I just received this article, JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie, yesterday through ILL. Since I got it, I'll go ahead and dredge this thread back up. Based on the article, it appears that the "exhausted land" argument was a post-war invention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    There are indications that during the last decade before the Civil War slave ownership became increasingly concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. As soil erosion and exhaustion diminished the availability of cotton land, scarcity and heavy demand forced the price of land and slaves to rise beyond the reach of most, and in newer cotton-growing regions, yeomen farmers were pushed off the land as planters expanded their holdings.
    There was still plenty of land for cotton available, untouched by the plow. In fact, based on what Southern farmers were writing in agricultural periodicals, the opinion was that the future looked extremely bright for Southern farmers growing cotton.

    What caused land and slaves to increase in price instead was the heavy demand for each. Prices shot through the roof in the 1850s for cotton, and when that happens, people want to grown more cotton, which required more land and slaves.

    Furthermore, if you look at postbellum yields, you'll find that yields per acre in 1880 and 1890 typically exceeded that of 1860. In addition to the ex ante opinions that the land would continue to yield cotton for the unforeseeable future, this is ex post evidence that slavery would not have died out because of land issues just within the borders of the CSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie
    In Louisiana, for example, nearly half of all rural white families owned no land. During the 1850s, the percentage of the total white population owning slaves declined significantly. By 1860, the proportion of whites holding slaves had fallen from about one-third to one-fourth. As slave and land ownership grew more concentrated, a growing number of whites were forced by economic pressure to leave the land and move to urban centers.

    Digital History
    This piece is used to claim that slavery was on its way out in terms of numbers. However, a closer examination reveals that the statistics used here - that the percentage of the white population owning slaves in Louisiana during the 1850s declined from 1/3 to ¼ - are misleading. Given a free population of 272,953 in 1850, ¼ would be 90,074 slave owners. Given a free population of 376,276 in 1860, 1/3 would be 94,069. So, while we are seeing the percentage owning slaves as decreasing, the actual number of slave owners [/b]increased[/b].

    Next, let’s look at the total number of slaves, since it’s possible that maybe while slave owners increased, they owned fewer slaves. In 1850, there were 244,809 slaves. In 1860, there were 331,726 slaves. That’s an increase in 36%.

    All the evidence considered, it's pretty clear that slavery was not a dying institution. Optimism abounded for the future of cotton. Much of the postbellum price woes were due to the Civil War causing the entry of Egypt and India as major players in the cotton growing market. Postbellum crop yields indicate that the land was quite capable of producing cotton for decades to come. The sharecropping system that evolved demonstrated that there was still a will to ride cotton as the cash crop. I think that Z's counterfactual prediction that slavery would have lasted until the mechanization of cotton picking in the 1950s has a strong ring to it, with only WWI and WWII providing a potentially earlier end to the institution. That's another 80-90 years of the peculiar institution, affected another 3-4 generations.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  12. #132
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    I guess the war really isn't over . . . Confederate States of America
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    I guess the war really isn't over . . . Confederate States of America
    Awesome!! Think I'll join.




    And btw, I tried to tell ya it wasn't over.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    Awesome!! Think I'll join.




    And btw, I tried to tell ya it wasn't over.
    Yeah, but did you notice it costs $50...in US currency to join?
    “Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.”
    - Robert A. Heinlein

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    The Confederate States of Moonbats!

    C'mon guys, we may not be happy with Obama and companies politics but it wont last forever. And surely not worth making fools out of yourselves believing this tripe on their page. The South both lost and surrendered face up to those facts and this is coming from someone that has (now) and has (in the past) had family living in the South for many years.

    "The Government of the Confederate States of America never officially surrendered to the Federal Union and thus still exists as an occupied government under the control of the Federal Union (UNITED STATES, INC.) in the Southern States of America including: Arkansas, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, No. Carolina, So. Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia and within the Territory of Arizona and the provisional Territories including Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, Maryland, Montana, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Wyoming."

    No doubt written by the head Moonbat I presume.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 02 Dec 09, at 17:47.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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