oh please troung... I'm here to discuss the two planes not the users... About the extension being "Pakistan", I was just giving an example on how poor pilot training can give a bad reputation to the plane; what the Mig-29 suffered... you go on to talk about users of the F-16 like America, but lets switch the planes around... during the Iraqi war... lets imagine the Iraqi's were flying the F-16's and the American's were flying the Mig-29's... do you really believe that Iraqi pilots would be able to take out the Americans with ease if they flew in F-16's??? The thing is we are here to compare the planes not who flies them... Just because American pilots with much upgraded F-16's with the support of AWACS can take down older Serbian or Iraqi Mig-29's with no such support doesn't mean the F-16 is superior...
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Originally Posted by troung
God what a waste of time. That article was written before the MiG-29 slaughters over the skies of Serbia and Eritrea and of course leaves out the MiG-29 was totally unable to bring down low flying F-4Ds in Iran as the plane had zero LD/SD ability.
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MiG-29B (Fulcrum-A) is fitted with the N-109 radar that has a look-down/shoot-down capability and can display ten targets in search and lock-on to one of the highest priority assigned by the computer. And thats one of the first Mig-29's in production so I don't know what you mean when you say the Mig-29 has no LD/SD capability...
Also, the "Mig-29 slaughter" took place between the F-16's which recieved AWACS support and the Mig's over Serbia were outnumbered in all the incidents they were
shot down. Also, the Serbs operated only about 10-15 Mig-29's...
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Originally Posted by troung
It's easy to figure out thistopic is an extension of the India Pakistan thingy.....
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why? How is it possible for you to give an example of Serbian Mig's getting shot down but I can't even give an example of Pakistani F-16's shot down???
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Originally Posted by troung
The PAF F-16 was shot down with an AIM-9 fired by his flight leader. The PAF F-16s also tore apart the VVS/DRAAF units they faced on the border shooting down Su-25s, Su-22s, MiG-23MLDs and MiG-21s along with cargo planes and helicopters.
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The thing is that an F-16 was shot down... so my point was that inferior pilot training usually results in the plane getting a bad reputation? I mean how many flying hours do you think the Iraqi's and the Serb's got compared to most NATO forces???
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Originally Posted by troung
F-16s and MiG-29s have tangled in real life and the F-16 came out ahead.
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Because, the Mig-29 always had the odds against it. Lack of support, poor pilot training and low maintanence resulted in Mig's falling from the sky...
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Originally Posted by troung
More F-16 users have an ARH BVR missile then do MiG-29 users.
Thailand (facing R-27R armed Burmese MiG-29As)
Israel (facing R-27R armed Syrian MiG-29As)
Jordan (facing R-27R armed Syrian MiG-29As)
Greece (closest MiG-29s are in Serbia)
Portugal
Norway
Netherlands
Belgium
Denmark
Turkey (facing R-27R armed Syrian MiG-29As)
Singapore (facing R-27R and possible R-77E armed MiG-29Ns)
South Korea (facing R-27R armed Northern Korean MiG-29s)
Taiwan
America
UAE (facing R-27R armed Iranian MiG-29As)
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It's not about if most of the "users" have BVR capabilities, its if the planes have BVR capabilities and both the Mig-29 and the F-16 have BVR capabilities... The Mig-29 infact had the BVR capabilities much earlier than the F-16's got it from their first flight.
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Originally Posted by troung
In fact only 3 F-16 users lack BVR and those are Indonesia, Venezuela and Pakistan as even Egypt has the AIM-7M on thier F-16C B-40s. The AIM-7M works in combat a lot better then the R-27R which is closer in effect to the AIM-7E-2. Only India, Peru and Malaysia are in theory fitted for the R-77E and only India has the missile active on thier planes.
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Ok... again it's not about the users... It's more to do about the plane and the fact that the R-77E is at present equipped on the Mig's...
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Originally Posted by troung
The F-16 has a better view out the cockpit, is far more user friendly, easier to support and keep in the air, has longer range, greater SA, and has a greater external payload.
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1.) "The F-16 has a better view out the cockpit" -true, point given.
2.) "is far more user friendly" -true, point given.
3.) "easier to support and keep in the air" -amplify this please... explain.
4.) "has longer range" -true... but the Mig-29's were designed to be a short range fighter.
5.) "greater SA" -again amplify please... SA?
6.) "has a greater external payload" wrong... the small external payload is actually a big problem that the F-16 is facing till now. The Mig-29 has a much larger external payload then the F-16
Some points on the Mig-29:
Performance
- Good Aerodynamics - But Compromised by Construction
- Inferior to F-16 Supersonically, Mig-29 Superiority at Slow Speeds
Flight Controls
- Manual System Limits Use of Full Capabilities But Allows for Superior Pilot Individualized Capabilities
Avionics
- Look-Down, Shoot-Down Radar.
- State-of-the-Art INS
- Radar Warning Receiver - Low Technology But Good Coverage
- IRST
- Helmet-Mounted Sight System
NOTE: These specs are of Mig-29A Fulcrums. Mig-29K's and M's are much more advanced... something the Iraqis and the Serbs didn't fly...
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Originally Posted by troung
So pretty much every MiG-29 which could tangle with an F-16 would be out classed. And that is leaving out that only two MiG-29 users (Russia/Iran) has AWACs in operation while America (E-3), Greece (Eireye) Singapore (E-2C), Israel (Phalcon) and Taiwan (E-2C) have operational AWACs (the NATO nations would not enter without AWACs but those are not techically in thier service). Chile is getting thier F-16s and already has the Phalcon. The UAE, South Korea and Turkey are all getting AWACs.
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Jeezes... if the topic was... "MIG-29 FULCRUM USERS vs. F-16 FALCON USERS" than maybe it would have actually mattered to put these specs down... again, we are comparing planes not countries and their tactics and equipment...
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Originally Posted by troung
So lets be honest other then two theatres the F-16 totally outclasses the likely MiG-29 oppostion... and of course you would only want to talk about one of those areas.
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outclassed??? omg... if you don't have any specs on the F-16 or the Mig-29, do some research and come back, i don't wanna know which country flies the E-3's or which country maintains their F-16's better...