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Ray · 09-11-2003, 16:40 PM

Colonel,

I think you are a very decent person and an excellent gentleman. I state this since you want the UN to go in to prove that the US is wrong.

I may not contribute to the feeling, but a large majority of the world feels that the US immorally went into Iraq and so let them clear the mess themselves. It may appear most uncharitable but then there is malicious glee world over at US's discomfort and everyone, including the British public, is putting fat into the fire. Everyone is looking at the body-bags threshold that the US citizens can tolerate. In fact, the body-bag tolerance level will become a threshold for citizens of other countries since it is fashionable to ape the US. In India we never worried about body-bags. It was honourable to die for one's country, but ever sine Vietnam occurred, our people also started making body-bags a great issue! 9 What is more important? National honour or body bags? Anyone joining the Defence should know that he or she may have to die. So, why make a song and dance about it? If one is afraid, then one should not join. I remember a poem from my childhood - Dulce et Decorum est, Pro Patria Mori [It is wonderful and honourable to die for one's country].

In so far as Saddam having WMD. I was convinced that he had none. A nation that has undergone so many years of deprivation and in total financial ruin cannot go in for WMDs in a big way. It costs money, especially the nuke side of it. Further, when Hans Blix and El Barade were non committal with all the intelligence provided to them, I was a bit more assured. Unfortunately, a doubt still lingered thanks to the international [West] media which has always been a powerful psyops weapon. [Russia and China were orges a few years back with all human rights violations. Now they are great guys!] The UN Inspectors wanted time, but was given none. Bush and Blair attacked being cocksure and even though they have had all the time in the world, they haven't found any WMD. They claim that it may have been squirreled away to neighbouring countries or hidden. What a laugh. Doe Bush and Blair think we are the Marines [Tell it to the Marines]! They have shattered my faith in morals that govern international affairs which does not mean that my faith in the US and UK has been shattered. I am sure they will surface from this bad dream as we all will.

In so far as Islam is concerned, you are entitled to your views. Not only are the countries you mention are democracies, but also Pakistan and Malaysia. Yet, Islam is their credo and Islam is not very accommodating. Turkey and Indonesia are by far the most tolerant because their leaders of yore, Kamal Attaturk and Seokarno were tolerant despots and realised that archaic rules cannot bring modernity. Indeed, they are the only Muslim Nations that have Roman script and not Arabic! Pakistan [then a part of India] and Malaysia being under the British were kept under the leash and hence they imbibed some good sense. However, with the rise of the concept of ummah, Pakistan and to a less extent Malaysia are falling prey to the fundamentalists. Pakistan is the saddest commentary since they have been encouraged and financed to become fundamentalist Islamists by the US in their quest to rid Afghanistan of the USSR through the Taliban hordes. As the Bible says - Sow and Ye shall Reap! I feel that the misery of 9/11 was brought about by the faulty priorities of the US but then I could be wrong.

How are you sure that none in Iraq is crying over Saddam? The Western media is not the only source of 'real' information. In fact, during the Iraq War, they were a disgrace and as good as Pravda. In India, we didn't care who won, though we knew that none could stop the US, but the one sided news reporting was shocking since we have always felt that the West had the most liberal population in the world and their media could not be made to kowtow. Even Goebbels would have admired the western media and wondered why he did not have them in his time! When Saddam's sons were killed there was a great volume of rifle fire around Baghdad. The Western media stated that they were rejoicing the death of the tyrants. Could it not be that the Iraqis were registering their protest and indicating the ominous times to come? Though you maybe a Chinese, but you were brought up in a westernised society and you will not understand all this Oriental sentiment fully. In the Orient, national honour is more important than individuals. In Oriental countries, they will close ranks to salvage national honour; more so in the Islamic Nations. In India, we may not value it that much but the Islamic countries value it tremendously. That is why they [Islamic Nation] condone the most heinous 'honour killing' which even their law turns a blind eye to! That is why they still have laws that believe in and eye for an eye and all that. Inhuman, but then that is their law.

Much that I would like to believe, but everybody did not support the Iraq War. In fact it was a mere handful unless you want to add the small inconsequential island nations too that wanted to find a place in the sun. Nor will they join in the 'stabilising force' unless they are clear that the UN will be the sole authority they will be reporting to. Any other ideas that one may fantasise on, will be mere fond delusions.

I may not be an African, but I understand their psyche; at least the psyche of being born enslaved. I was born when the British ruled our country. You will not understand, but in those days if a British murdered, he was let off with a light sentence, but if an Indian even stabbed he got death or life sentence. Great justice. What ho, old chap? Further, I have interacted with many Africans who were my students or acquaintances and I am sure you will appreciate that I enjoy and intellectual discussion since I benefit from it more as I am benefiting from interacting on this non Indian forum. I am sure that this forum will broaden my horizon as it is doing right now.

I am not blaming the US for embarking on a war with Iraq. Their National requirements indicated that they had to attack Iraq come what may. I say, Amen [So be it]. Who are we to quibble about that? However, to bring the morality question into it and then attempt to force, coerce, bribe other Nations to endorse the same is stupid. In fact, it is most insulting that with uncorroborated fact, countries wanting to go to war want to play the Confederate Plantation owners to others, who are to act out the role of Uncle Tom and his ilk (Uncle Tom's Cabin).

Indeed when China attacked Vietnam, when they attacked India, the Indo Pak Wars etc etc none took anyone permission. But, they also did not ask the UN and the real world or international community to endorse it as correct. That's where the difference lies. US and UK wanted the UN to endorse the Iraq War based on, as is being proved now and as it was before, downright lies! Russia, Germany and France have equally wonderful intelligence agencies and they too were not convinced. Imagine, uranium from Niger being bandied as authentic to be proved wrong as is the WMD. The Lord Hutton Inquiry and the British Parliamentary Inquiry is proving what a hoax has been perpetuated. A fair inquiry in the US may not come forth like the 21 pages blanked out from the Congressional Hearings that showed Saudi Arabia's involvement and maybe some other 'friendly' country's involvement.

Do you think Kosovo and other issues are correct? Do you think that the US and NATO's hearts were bleeding for them? If so, why was it not done much earlier when the situation would not have become so serious? That is utter tripe. It was just to ensure Balkanisation [remember history?] and ensure never again the Russians have any toehold in their 'sphere of influence'. Do you think Poland is in Iraq because they are convinced of the cause? All this reminds me of that famous saying - Play it one time, Sam.

I am aware that none cares for Delhi has to say. We know it and actually it really makes no diff to us. In fact, India is more democratic - a large majority of Indians also don't are what Delhi has to say :. However, just see CANCUN deliberations. The media is calling a correct assertion by India, China and Brazil as the assertion of the 'Gang of 21'. Imagine it is a 'gang' when all they are saying is have a level playing field for agriculture as you have for other products where you have the say so in international trade. Imagine, the massive subsidies given by the US and EU for their agri products wherein developing countries products of the same variety becomes cost prohibitive because we can't afford such subsidies. So, maybe, some day, someone will hear us.

At the end I suspect that you have purposely been obtuse so that I respond in the manner I have done here. The Chinese are past masters in keeping straight face and jabbing an acupuncture needle where it not only hurts but makes people respond in a way that they don't want to do; and I bow to that! I apologies to all if what I have written is hurtful since that is not the intention. I firmly feel that none can comment on a country's policies since their government knows what is best for them. One can only comment in so far as how it affects them. If the Coalition has gone to War, rightly or wrongly, they know what is best for them.

In so far as Islam is concerned, I am afraid that since you have not lived in an Islamic society which I have done, you will not be able to fathom the Islamic mind. I also cannot say I am 100% sure. Do visit www.bharat-rakshak.com 's site and the thread 'Mind of the Mullah'. I don't subscribe to much of what is written as you will observe there.

09-11-2003, 16:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,139 Country:	Colonel, I think you are a very decent person and an excellent gentleman. I state this since you want the UN to go in to prove that the US is wrong. I may not contribute to the feeling, but a large majority of the world feels that the US immorally went into Iraq and so let them clear the mess themselves. It may appear most uncharitable but then there is malicious glee world over at US's discomfort and everyone, including the British public, is putting fat into the fire. Everyone is looking at the body-bags threshold that the US citizens can tolerate. In fact, the body-bag tolerance level will become a threshold for citizens of other countries since it is fashionable to ape the US. In India we never worried about body-bags. It was honourable to die for one's country, but ever sine Vietnam occurred, our people also started making body-bags a great issue! 9 What is more important? National honour or body bags? Anyone joining the Defence should know that he or she may have to die. So, why make a song and dance about it? If one is afraid, then one should not join. I remember a poem from my childhood - Dulce et Decorum est, Pro Patria Mori [It is wonderful and honourable to die for one's country]. In so far as Saddam having WMD. I was convinced that he had none. A nation that has undergone so many years of deprivation and in total financial ruin cannot go in for WMDs in a big way. It costs money, especially the nuke side of it. Further, when Hans Blix and El Barade were non committal with all the intelligence provided to them, I was a bit more assured. Unfortunately, a doubt still lingered thanks to the international [West] media which has always been a powerful psyops weapon. [Russia and China were orges a few years back with all human rights violations. Now they are great guys!] The UN Inspectors wanted time, but was given none. Bush and Blair attacked being cocksure and even though they have had all the time in the world, they haven't found any WMD. They claim that it may have been squirreled away to neighbouring countries or hidden. What a laugh. Doe Bush and Blair think we are the Marines [Tell it to the Marines]! They have shattered my faith in morals that govern international affairs which does not mean that my faith in the US and UK has been shattered. I am sure they will surface from this bad dream as we all will. In so far as Islam is concerned, you are entitled to your views. Not only are the countries you mention are democracies, but also Pakistan and Malaysia. Yet, Islam is their credo and Islam is not very accommodating. Turkey and Indonesia are by far the most tolerant because their leaders of yore, Kamal Attaturk and Seokarno were tolerant despots and realised that archaic rules cannot bring modernity. Indeed, they are the only Muslim Nations that have Roman script and not Arabic! Pakistan [then a part of India] and Malaysia being under the British were kept under the leash and hence they imbibed some good sense. However, with the rise of the concept of ummah, Pakistan and to a less extent Malaysia are falling prey to the fundamentalists. Pakistan is the saddest commentary since they have been encouraged and financed to become fundamentalist Islamists by the US in their quest to rid Afghanistan of the USSR through the Taliban hordes. As the Bible says - Sow and Ye shall Reap! I feel that the misery of 9/11 was brought about by the faulty priorities of the US but then I could be wrong. How are you sure that none in Iraq is crying over Saddam? The Western media is not the only source of 'real' information. In fact, during the Iraq War, they were a disgrace and as good as Pravda. In India, we didn't care who won, though we knew that none could stop the US, but the one sided news reporting was shocking since we have always felt that the West had the most liberal population in the world and their media could not be made to kowtow. Even Goebbels would have admired the western media and wondered why he did not have them in his time! When Saddam's sons were killed there was a great volume of rifle fire around Baghdad. The Western media stated that they were rejoicing the death of the tyrants. Could it not be that the Iraqis were registering their protest and indicating the ominous times to come? Though you maybe a Chinese, but you were brought up in a westernised society and you will not understand all this Oriental sentiment fully. In the Orient, national honour is more important than individuals. In Oriental countries, they will close ranks to salvage national honour; more so in the Islamic Nations. In India, we may not value it that much but the Islamic countries value it tremendously. That is why they [Islamic Nation] condone the most heinous 'honour killing' which even their law turns a blind eye to! That is why they still have laws that believe in and eye for an eye and all that. Inhuman, but then that is their law. Much that I would like to believe, but everybody did not support the Iraq War. In fact it was a mere handful unless you want to add the small inconsequential island nations too that wanted to find a place in the sun. Nor will they join in the 'stabilising force' unless they are clear that the UN will be the sole authority they will be reporting to. Any other ideas that one may fantasise on, will be mere fond delusions. I may not be an African, but I understand their psyche; at least the psyche of being born enslaved. I was born when the British ruled our country. You will not understand, but in those days if a British murdered, he was let off with a light sentence, but if an Indian even stabbed he got death or life sentence. Great justice. What ho, old chap? Further, I have interacted with many Africans who were my students or acquaintances and I am sure you will appreciate that I enjoy and intellectual discussion since I benefit from it more as I am benefiting from interacting on this non Indian forum. I am sure that this forum will broaden my horizon as it is doing right now. I am not blaming the US for embarking on a war with Iraq. Their National requirements indicated that they had to attack Iraq come what may. I say, Amen [So be it]. Who are we to quibble about that? However, to bring the morality question into it and then attempt to force, coerce, bribe other Nations to endorse the same is stupid. In fact, it is most insulting that with uncorroborated fact, countries wanting to go to war want to play the Confederate Plantation owners to others, who are to act out the role of Uncle Tom and his ilk (Uncle Tom's Cabin). Indeed when China attacked Vietnam, when they attacked India, the Indo Pak Wars etc etc none took anyone permission. But, they also did not ask the UN and the real world or international community to endorse it as correct. That's where the difference lies. US and UK wanted the UN to endorse the Iraq War based on, as is being proved now and as it was before, downright lies! Russia, Germany and France have equally wonderful intelligence agencies and they too were not convinced. Imagine, uranium from Niger being bandied as authentic to be proved wrong as is the WMD. The Lord Hutton Inquiry and the British Parliamentary Inquiry is proving what a hoax has been perpetuated. A fair inquiry in the US may not come forth like the 21 pages blanked out from the Congressional Hearings that showed Saudi Arabia's involvement and maybe some other 'friendly' country's involvement. Do you think Kosovo and other issues are correct? Do you think that the US and NATO's hearts were bleeding for them? If so, why was it not done much earlier when the situation would not have become so serious? That is utter tripe. It was just to ensure Balkanisation [remember history?] and ensure never again the Russians have any toehold in their 'sphere of influence'. Do you think Poland is in Iraq because they are convinced of the cause? All this reminds me of that famous saying - Play it one time, Sam. I am aware that none cares for Delhi has to say. We know it and actually it really makes no diff to us. In fact, India is more democratic - a large majority of Indians also don't are what Delhi has to say :. However, just see CANCUN deliberations. The media is calling a correct assertion by India, China and Brazil as the assertion of the 'Gang of 21'. Imagine it is a 'gang' when all they are saying is have a level playing field for agriculture as you have for other products where you have the say so in international trade. Imagine, the massive subsidies given by the US and EU for their agri products wherein developing countries products of the same variety becomes cost prohibitive because we can't afford such subsidies. So, maybe, some day, someone will hear us. At the end I suspect that you have purposely been obtuse so that I respond in the manner I have done here. The Chinese are past masters in keeping straight face and jabbing an acupuncture needle where it not only hurts but makes people respond in a way that they don't want to do; and I bow to that! I apologies to all if what I have written is hurtful since that is not the intention. I firmly feel that none can comment on a country's policies since their government knows what is best for them. One can only comment in so far as how it affects them. If the Coalition has gone to War, rightly or wrongly, they know what is best for them. In so far as Islam is concerned, I am afraid that since you have not lived in an Islamic society which I have done, you will not be able to fathom the Islamic mind. I also cannot say I am 100% sure. Do visit www.bharat-rakshak.com 's site and the thread 'Mind of the Mullah'. I don't subscribe to much of what is written as you will observe there.