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Originally Posted by dalem
Sure, but I don't live my life on the fence about things. I categorize and move on. Right now the Obamas are not what I consider to be patriots. At some time in the future new info may come to light and I might change my mind. But who really cares about my opinion on that anyway?
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That answers my question. You do have an open mind, but then I already knew that.
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They'd have to be pretty significant facts to change my mind, yes.
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You may well find out one way or th'other in the next few years.
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I see where you're going but I disagree right at the start. Pols of course want to shape the country around their particular ideas, but asid from the rather easy semantic bobble of "what if the pol just votes to keep things as they are?", I honestly think there are a lot of basics that most pols agree on and don't want to change. So "as it is" was a valid qualifier for me to use.
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Now wait a second. I thought I made it clear I wasn't talking about changing basic values, and so on, or about politicians trying to shape the country to fit their own ideas. I was talking about fixing problems. For example, AS IT IS today, the country has problems like the deficit, job loss, high fuel costs, and others. We can reject the AS IS and do something about those problems without diminishing our love of country or patriotism. That's what I meant.
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If I am, he's failed to convince me of it. And so have you, and you're doing a far better job of trying. 
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You can't convince a contrarian, and I don't mean that in any but a respectful way. Maybe we ought to go back to arguing the existence of God.
