Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumku
Thats Impressive. Good for Turkey.
Though I still have reservations on whether we can actually Count Turkey as amongst the Top-5 Airforce's in Asia[if we were to assume that Turkey is part of Asia].
I guess no. Yeah, you might field an F-35 a good 3-4 years before other Forces, however F-35 is not the end-all-be-all of everything. I am not saying the F-35 is the end-all-be-all of everything. But do not forget the JSF project is the product of 8 countries industries joining forces and the pouring of $260 billion. It will be a very capable plane for at least 25 years.
Qualitative Superiority is one thing and Numerical Superiority is other and both have their own pros and cons. How many F-35's are you going to fleld anyways. From how many Airfields are they going to operate. What Solid Air Defense have you in place? Turkey has put a firm order for 100 F-35C, (there is talk of increasing this number to 150) There are in excess of 120 Military Airfields in Turkey. Turkey also maintain bases in Albania, Azeribeijan and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
Besides Training is another aspect we can't forget. Also economically,how strong are you. Honestly, I think you have no information or idea about Turkey or the Turkish Air Force. Please read up on Turkey before you give an opinion on it. Turkey is not one of NATO's most important countries for no reason.
Do you really think that Turkish AirForce would come as a winner when compared to China? I did not assert this...however, I do believe that for SOME missions the TuAF is better equipped than China.
F-35 is not everything. In a real war like situation, probably Russia,China and India can quickly put a lot more 4.5 Gen A/C's in air than Turkey can field F-35's. Again you are forgeting or a ill-imformed about the fact that Turkey has been producing F-16's under licence from Lockheed Martin for over 20 years now. Do you really believe during war, Turkey is going to sit back and listen to licencing agreements? For gods sake, Turkey is producing the F-35 under licence as well. During war, it will manufacture at full capacity! Don't forget 400 of the US Air Forces F-35 will be built by Turkish Aircraft Industries due to the significant cost reduction
Qualitative Superiority has advanages only in a Ratio of lets say 1:3 or at the max 1:5 and definitely not 1:20. The Turkish Air Force both has the numbers and the quality. 170 4 generation (F-4 Terminator 2020), 240- 4.5 generation aircraft (F-16 CCIP), 100- JSF + 150- unknown fith generation aircraft is a sizeable modern force.
5-6 Jag's can easily take out an F-35. So again the Question "How many F-35's Turkey would field/make".How many BVR missiles you have. China has tons of them and so has Russia.
Turkey's Air Force is Impressive and would give a clear shot over Iran, but still no place amongst Top-5 in Asia. I think you need to revise this. If the Turkish Air Force is easily in the top 2 in Europe it is easily in the top 5 of Asia!
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Regarding the Turkish Armed Forces Economics/Funding/Modernization
Heres what the US Central Intelligence Agency says about the Turkish Armed Forces
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a "National Security Policy Document" adopted in October 2005 increases the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) role in internal security, augmenting the General Directorate of Security and Gendarmerie General Command (Jandarma); the TSK leadership continues to play a key role in politics and considers itself guardian of Turkey's secular state; in April 2007, it warned the ruling party about any pro-Islamic appointments; despite on-going negotiations on EU accession since October 2005, progress has been limited in establishing required civilian supremacy over the military; primary domestic threats are listed as fundamentalism (with the definition in some dispute with the civilian government), separatism (the Kurdish problem), and the extreme left wing; Ankara strongly opposed establishment of an autonomous Kurdish region; an overhaul of the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC) taking place under the "Force 2014" program is to produce 20-30% smaller, more highly trained forces characterized by greater mobility and firepower and capable of joint and combined operations; the TLFC has taken on increasing international peacekeeping responsibilities, and took charge of a NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) command in Afghanistan in April 2007; the Turkish Navy is a regional naval power that wants to develop the capability to project power beyond Turkey's coastal waters; the Navy is heavily involved in NATO, multinational, and UN operations; its roles include control of territorial waters and security for sea lines of communications; the Turkish Air Force adopted an "Aerospace and Missile Defense Concept" in 2002 and has initiated project work on an integrated missile defense system; Air Force priorities include attaining a modern deployable, survivable, and sustainable force structure, and establishing a sustainable command and control system (2008)
Reference: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/tu.html
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Regarding the $160 billion modernization
Turkey has allocated a budget of $150 billion for modernization. This sum will be spent over a period of 30 years (which commenced in 1997) and is to be used for acquisition of idegenous Frigates, Tanks, Missile Defence Systems etc only. This budget is exclusive of the yearly military budget which is officially stated as 5.7% of GDP. The following must also be taken into consideration:
THIS BUDGET WAS CALCULATED AND ALOCATED DURING THE ECONOMIC CRISIS TURKEY FACED AND DURING WHEN THE GDP WAS AROUND $400 BILLION. TODAY, TURKEY IS A CANDIDATE COUNTRY FOR EU MEMBERSHIP AND ITS GDP (PPP) IS $980 BILLION. IT WILL EXCEED $ 1 TRILLION NEXT YEAR ACCORDING TO IMF AND WORLD BANK OFFICIALS.
ADD TO THIS:
The fact that the Turkish Armed forces also owns majority shares in several of Turkey's largest Corporations. These collectively bring an extra $10 billion of income per year to the Armed Forces. These companies include: ASELSAN, HAVELSAN, ROKETSAN, MKEK, several Turkish lottery companies and some oil exploration companies operating in Azerbeijan and Northern Iraq.
For very detailed information about the Economics of the Turkish Armed Forces I draw your attention to the following documents from very reputable American sources:
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Introduction
"The Political Economy of Turkish Military Modernization" by Dr. Elliot Hen-Tov
This study examines the political economy of the military modernization project begun in 1996 in Turkey. Due to the unprecedented scope of the modernization effort and the particularities of the defense industry, this project will impact both Turkey's relations with its allies as well as its democratization process. The large purchases of military technology and the expected professionalization of the Turkish military will lead to an enhancement in Turkey's international stature, especially in its relationship with Western supplier states. Simultaneously, the modernization will produce domestic social forces that facilitate further democratization. Reference: Turkish Military Modernization
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See also
The Military in Modern Turkey
Opinion Paper: "Turkey’s Quest to Modernize Remains on Track"
Turkey Military
You also mentioned that you would like to see non-Turkish sources. Well, please refer to my second post after this one. I have attached references from the US Navy, outlining some of the projects where the $160 billion is being spent on. I must inform you that after the new Economic situation, Turkey has added more National Frigates and MBT's to the list. TCG Heybeliada, a MILGEM corvette will be launched this September.
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Regarding the Turkish Air Forces other Assets, viz Air Defence Systems
You mentioned earlier in your post that Combat Aircraft are not the only determinant of Air power. Well you were right. Below is a non-exhaustive list of all the other Turkish Air Force Assets for your perusal.
TRANSPORT FORCE
7 x C-130E Hercules (being extensively modernised with Full Glass Cockpits etc)
6 x C-130B Hercules (with ELINT/SIGINT equipment)
19 x C-160T Transall
50 x CN 235-100M
10 x Airbus A-400M (Firm Order)
UNMANNED AERIAL INVENTORY
20 x TIHA MALE Attack/Surveillance (Indigenous UAV similar to US Predator, TIHA-B armed with 4 laser guided missiles) (800 km)
40 x Heron MALE Attack/Surveillance UAV (1000/3300 km)
107 x Harpy Attack UAV (500 km)
2 I x GNAT Surveillance UAV (500 km)
HELICOPTER INVENTORY
20 x AS 532UL Cougar Mk1 (14 SAR + 6 CSAR)
81 x Bell UH-1H Iroquois (SAR/ECM/Utility)- To be modernized
45 x UNKNOWN HEAVY LIFT (Negotiations for the co-production of a heavy lift helicopter such as the Chinook still continuing).
TRAINING AIRCRAFT INVENTORY
69 x T-38A Talon (received structural upgrade, to be modernized)
61 x Cessna T-37B/C (received structural upgrade)
38 x Aermacchi SF-260D
26 x T-41D Mescalero
0 x KAI KT-1 (40 on order to replace T-37s)
Also, currently the development of both Turbo-prop and Turbo-fan engine trainer aircraft are continuing at Turkish Aerospace Industries. It is planned that they will enter service in 2012.
TuAF Air Defense Force
Long Range/High altitute
72 Nike Hercules(about to be retired
Patriot/S-300/S-400- There is currently in negotiations with Russian and US companies for an anti-balistic missile defence shield (It will consist of a minimum of 4 systems). Russia is the favoured as they have offered co-production and tech-transfer. See
Russia offers Turkey upgraded, longer-range S-300s Papandreou: Greece is ready to discuss everything with Turkey that doesn't affect its sovereignty P - Turkish Daily News Mar 04, 2000
After the off-the-shelf initial order of 4 systems, Turkey will then commence the development of an indegenous system in conjunction with a foreign partner. There is a requirement of an extra indegenous 8 systems.
A next generation Very-High Altitude Anti-Balistic weapons system web- to be co-produced by the Boeing and Havelsan of Turkey team. It will be used by the US, Turkey and NATO. (see
Boeing and Havelsan of Turkey join forces to develop new missile defence shield....
Medium Range/Altitute
24 I-HAWK-PIP3 launchers with MPQ-64 Sentinel Radars/Konsberg Fire Control Centers
Indigenous system in development by ASELSAN of Turkey
Low Altitute/Short Range
80 x Rapier Lauchers/37 Blindfire Fire Control radars upgraded to B1X version, new 800 Rapier Mk-2 missiles started to be assembled in Turkey.
32 x Aselsan of Turkey KMS, each carries 4 ready to fire Stingers-RPM and 12.7mm machine gun for close range...
35mm/40mm short range AA guns supported by D-XI Radar/FLIR weapon control platforms...
Turkish Military Space Program
I do not want to digress from the main topic, however Turkey also has a very active space program. The program includes but is not limited to, the acquisition of a 0.8cm resolution Recon. Satelite (Project Gokturk-1) for use by the Turkish Armed Forces and a 2m resolution Recon Satelite (Project Gokturk-2) for use by the Turkish National Intelligence Organisation. Gokturk-2 is currently being produced by Turkish Aerospace Industries. Gokturk-1 is in the tender stages. The electro optical parts required for the Gokturk-1 (0.8m resolution) are beyond the technological knowhow of Turkish Aerospace Industries, thus a foreign partner is being sought. The strongest contenders in the tender are EADS-Astrium and Elenia.
For further information please refer to the following (some a Turkish Government sources):
Turkey moves towards setting up costly sapece programs.** (Turkish Daily News* Gazetesi/30.05.2001)
Turkish Satellite Project Attracts Global Interest
TÜBİTAK UZAY Space Technologies Research Institute - Uzay Teknolojileri Araştırma Enstitüsü +90 312 210 1310
Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program
» Israel may sell Turkey an Ofek spy satellite in a $300m deal NoisyRoom.net: Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace. Amelia Earhart
Israel's Barak visits Turkey to discuss spy satellite sales - Topix