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Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim
Lets get something clear - I am not arguing that the majority of the Islamic States that exist today are bastions of freedom and equality, I am not arguing that they do not have any repressive or discriminatory laws.
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Ag.Muslim,
Thank you for accepting, the countries of middle east are more than repressive on basic human rights and even more so when it comes to minorites.
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I am arguing that being an Islamic State does not preclude these nations from evolving and reforming.
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Lets for a minute in place of 'Islamic' State put 'White', what will that give you. APARTHEID- RACISIM. Do that in the name of Islam/religion, then it is all OK, and HUMAN PARADISE.
An Islamic state, will not be Islamic without the application Sharia, and people of minorities will have to be subservient to the wishes and sensbilities of muslims,(same thing pakistan said before its creation, where both of our countries are now is a history and fact)
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I am arguing that the nature of these States does not imply anything about the "widespread tolerance", or lack of, of their citizens.
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Oh it does, when it is repressive methodology which is not acceptable or are inhuman to a section of human beings, Nazi ideology, communism, islamism, white supermacy etc all come in the same line.
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You base your argument on the most vitriolic, extreme and intolerant interpretations of Islam that exist -
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Somehow my dear sir,
that is the majority of Islamic government except for Turkey
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I base my argument on the moderate, respectful and tolerant strain of Islam that I know, that I grew up with - that I believe a majority of Muslims share.
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You as an individual maybe, I dont know. But that is not the case of your country or any other islamic state. If you know how a 'Islamic state' can keep the its islamic values as well as be fair to be all the citizens, then please do tell me. I am willing to listen, such a concept will be new to me and all the world.
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I don't believe non-Muslims and women are second class citizens, that they cannot have equal rights - you seem to be insisting that I do - Takiyah and all eh..
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Again its not about you as an individual, my best friend is a muslim. That doesnt change what a muslim society does to its minorities or views people of other faith,. I have posted the response from a muslim woman of sudanese origin in Havard on an Issue that happened over there, so that people like you can understand what your own people are going through, minorities are worse off. The sheer desperation faced by christains and jews of Iraq who are one of the most ancient people, is sad beyond words. If there was something I respected Saddam Hussien, it was that. But then again he was another toon.
And yes, I am not convinced about your honesty and your intentions. Yes , Takiyah and all. Thats my belief, you can have yours
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Will it be perfect, probably not
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Sorry,
That doesnt cut it with me, nothing less than equality is acceptable to all human beings.
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- In Pakistan for example I do not see the restrictions on the President and Prime Minister going away any time soon. But as long as we can work towards non-Muslims, and Muslims, being able to exercise all other rights and have all freedoms, I'll be happy.
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Well, then it is not a good state, especially from the perspective of the minorities. You are basically telling the minorities to just suck it up and move on. NO GO,
Its not just about Prime Minister or President, there are so many other places they are restricted especially in a religiously intolerent state such as Pakistan. I will be suprised if they were get a job, in such a highly prejudiced enviornment. The reason they have come down from 12.75% in the 1960's to 3% now.