Originally Posted by Tronic

Stan, India has in the past tolerated much worse; much higher caliber of terrorist attacks and many more civillians killed; yet we were still up till now
holding peace talks with the very man who planned an invasion of Indian territory in 1999. But lets even consider the Israeli strategy of 'giving it back'; have you faired any better then us in finishing off this problem?

You negotiating with the man who planned the invasion of Indian territory and "tolerating" terrorism is not something anyone should take example from.

Yes, maybe they should. It makes perfect sense; attack once and get it over with. But its not going to happen; do you know why? Because the more you kill, the more will come. You are trying to kill off an ideology with guns. Bad idea. "You can kill a man, but you cannot kill an ideology." (quoting a fellow WAB member, don't exactly remember who (Ray?)). The point is to 'win hearts and minds'. Sounds impossible, I know, but its the only way there will ever be peace between Israelis and Arabs. Should get started on it right away.

The hearts and minds campaign is catch-phrase, one that has been caught up by the media and therefore everyone knows it and takes it as gospel. At some point, you start battling ideas so much so that you stop doing one of the most concrete things to make bad guys think twice about attacking: killing other bad guys. The way things are going now, there will not be peace between Arabs and Israelis. Starting appeasement ops out of a desperate and naive hope that it will bring about peace will only get you shot at more, not less. The times that Arabs have acted most peacefully toward Israel was when they were shaking in their boots that anything done from their territory will designate their leaders and commanders as targets for immediate retribution.

Palestine is not a Chechnya; its affects and repercussions are wider felt in regards to stability in the entire Middle East and from there it interlinks the conflict with the rest of the world.

So.. because it affects other regions of the world, the principles of not giving into terror campaigns should be abandoned in favor of cease-fires that perpetuate such campaigns by giving terrorists respite? I'm confused, how exactly is letting terrorists know that if they only blow themselves up enough that they can eventually have political success, HOW is exactly is HELPFUL to the stability of either the Middle East or the rest of the world?

No, it would not be an issue if it was only one civillian. It is not one civillian, but dozens; and even that would not make such a big fuss if it didn't keep happening over and over again.

Every civilian death is a tragedy, I fully agree. On the other hand, there is pretty clear lesson to learn. If you're a civilian, don't hang around terrorists, they might get bombed, you know what I mean. If I knew my neighbor was a terrorist and liable to get bombed, I'd sure as hell either sell him out or move. If I knew he was a terrorist, I wouldn't stand by his car and chat all the time, waiting to get shrapnel in my face and then complain about it.

You are right, its not held to the same standards and I must apologize. Its just that I thought Israel was a more responsible actor in the Middle East, then its Arab counterparts.

I was actually talking about being held to the standard as the rest of the world nation-states, not just Arab counterparts. As far as being a more responsible actor, I think it's pretty hollow to keep holding someone more responsible for the response than for attack and then snub your nose at them for "not being the bigger man."

Replace the US with India. And even comparing Israel and India; I don't see at all how Israel's actions has put it in any less of a mess against terrorists.

You don't? That's a shame. Let me help you understand. How many suicide bombings in Israel in 2000? 2001? 2002? 2003? 2004? 2005? 2006? 2007? 2008?

See a trend here? Vigilant CT ops and destruction of terrorist infrastructure killed the intifada. That gives most Israelis more peace of heart and mind than negotiating with savages who use peace agreements for toilet paper the day after signing them, and rightfully so.

Osama and Al-queda are not a political entity among a state populace. Hamas is. And it is a political and an ideological entity which has massive Palestinian support. How can you possibly wipe an ideology off the map with guns? I'm still baffled at the thought.

Once the political and ideological entity which you massively support can't provide for you or allow you a means to provide for youself, all bets are off. That's why all the incrementalism should stop and Israel should cut all power to Gaza.

Stan, 2 critical posts of Israeli action, and you have automatically determined my attitude towards all of Israel. What more can I say?

Your tone is quite apparent from what you've said so far. What more can you say? Something that counters that previous tone and attitude, hopefully