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Old 01-26-2008, 08:54 AM   #59 (permalink)
Stan187
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Originally Posted by ZFBoxcar View Post
I'm saying that I was under the impression that during the 70s and 80s, the security situation did not merit segregated highways, as far as I know.

They were built later. For example, the road leading out of Maaleh Adumim was built with the onset of the intifada, because Palestinians kept shooting the cars on the previous shared road running by Abu Dis.

Perhaps the third from the top on the left side shouldn't have been included, but I stand by my assertion that Ariel (and the whole 2nd from the top on the left) hardly counts as a border settlement.

Agreeing to disagree then.


FOCUS ON ISSUES



Throwing more money at 'em when internal corruption is such a big problem isn't such a simple and good solution.

What I meant is that Israel does not compel Israeli Arabs to serve, and until it does they are not in defiance of anything. And refusing to perform national service for a state that doesn't treat you like an equal is hardly grounds for the state to strip of your citizenship, take away your livelihood, seize your property, and force you to leave at gun point. You might respond that Israeli Arabs have a higher standard of living than Arabs in other countries do, and that is true, but that doesn't make discrimination okay.

Until they start participating in society of the state that has given them such a high standard of living as compared to their neighbors, why do they deserve the same treatment as regular contributing members of society. Keep in mind, same goes, in my opinion, for jobless ultra-religious deadbeats.

I think I read it a couple years ago. Well argued, but I find political science to not exactly be well...a science. There is often more than one way to solve a problem.

That's pretty insulting actually. There is often more than one way to solve a problem. And in this case, there is nothing showing that other suggested solutions will work, the track record for various suggestions being quite poor through repeated examples. This is not the one solution any more than democracy is the ultimate type of government. But it has by far been shown to be the best that there is.

I would argue that internally (not including the West Bank and Gaza obviously) Israel HAS a relatively stable society. There has never been a coup in Israel, everyone accepts the results of elections, Israeli Arabs have not attempted insurrections, the multi national/ethnic Jewish immigrants from around the world fit in fairly well (although of course there are problems there too), etc.



But Israel's conflicts are with outside actors, so that isn't really applicable. Separating Israeli Jews from Israeli Arabs does absolutely nothing towards solving the Israeli Arab conflict because it isn't Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs that are fighting each other.

It sure as hell is applicable. Proximity matters. No matter how hostile the Iranians are, they are far away. The Palestinians, for example, have a lower cost for committing violent action, less effort that they have to put in to get such a thing done. Security is rooted in the protected enclaves, and in making sure than a population is not overwhelmed. Even if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is settled, if a large minority of Arabs remain, problems will spark up, you can count on it. There is no trust between the two communities, and it is arguable whether a common trust and society can be built or not. If Arabs are so disenchanted with Israel, then by all means join your Arab bretheren under Fatah rule or whatnot, no?

Certainly transfer is less bad than massacre, but its still a terrible solution unless voluntary. It is still, as I described earlier: the state stripping you of your citizenship, taking away your livelihood, seizing your property, and forcing you to leave at gun point and arresting or killing you if you refuse to leave your home. Jews have been expelled from European countries countless times. Sure, its not as bad as the Holocaust, but we still consider this to have been barbaric, brutal, and criminal behaviour, as well we should.

That's why there's been talk from Lieberman about the territorial exchange, so that no moving has to take place. Citizenship, however, is another matter.
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Last edited by Stan187 : 01-26-2008 at 09:00 AM.
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