World Affairs Board - View Single Post - Patton vs Centurion 1965 Indo-Pakistan war

zraver · 09-02-2007, 00:20 AM

The Pakistanis had M-48 or M-48A1 models, the next A the A3 did not appear until 1968, and the 105mm gun equipped a4 did not appear until 1975 as a way to help over come the equipment replacement cycle missed due to Vietnam. The only other 105mm M-48s were the Magach of Israel and the M48A2GA2 of West Germany.

IIRC the first tank equipped with a laser rangefinder was the Cheiftan in the late 1960's

Ok that beign cleared up, not all Pakistani tanks were m48, many were m-47's that were hideously ill designed with massive shot traps. Plus the US 90mm was never well regarded as an accurate or powerful gun going back to the M36 Jackson. The Centurion with either the 20 pounder or 105mm would outgun the M-47 or M-48. As did the AMX-13 with its French clone of the WW2 German 75mm L/70 of Panther fame. The Stuart light tank's 37mm gun could penetrate the lightly armored Chaffee as easily as the Chaffees low velocity 75 could punch the Stuart with its amazingly heavy armor for a light tank.

Accuracy, the Cents simpler sights were much more useful for a low tech savvy population like India and Pakistan had in the 60's. Complex machinery needs technically savvy crews. Soviet T-62's with thier ballistic computers presented the same problems to the Arabs in 67 and 73.

So all in all the Indians had the usable technology edge, plus were on the defensive and had a healthy does of respect for the Pakistani formations. The Pakistanies had numbers and courage, but the Patton farm shows just how little that means against a dug in enemy.

other questions

1- Did the Indian's have time to set out ranging stakes and make up range cards, that would give them a huge edge. Amazing how useful white paint can be on the defensive.

2- does anyone have any info on the actual models each side had in the fight and how they were employed. I bing this up because the Pakistanis attackign would shoot the closest enemy but the Indians should have put thier cents with thier long range gun behind the Shermans. This means the Pattons were firing on Sherman's while being fired on by Cents.

If the Indian's had range markers and Sherman's soaking the Pattons fire the Pakistanis didn't really have a chance.

09-02-2007, 00:20 AM	#45 (permalink)
zraver Contrary by nature. *Military Professional* Join Date: 10-22-06 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,164 Country:	The Pakistanis had M-48 or M-48A1 models, the next A the A3 did not appear until 1968, and the 105mm gun equipped a4 did not appear until 1975 as a way to help over come the equipment replacement cycle missed due to Vietnam. The only other 105mm M-48s were the Magach of Israel and the M48A2GA2 of West Germany. IIRC the first tank equipped with a laser rangefinder was the Cheiftan in the late 1960's Ok that beign cleared up, not all Pakistani tanks were m48, many were m-47's that were hideously ill designed with massive shot traps. Plus the US 90mm was never well regarded as an accurate or powerful gun going back to the M36 Jackson. The Centurion with either the 20 pounder or 105mm would outgun the M-47 or M-48. As did the AMX-13 with its French clone of the WW2 German 75mm L/70 of Panther fame. The Stuart light tank's 37mm gun could penetrate the lightly armored Chaffee as easily as the Chaffees low velocity 75 could punch the Stuart with its amazingly heavy armor for a light tank. Accuracy, the Cents simpler sights were much more useful for a low tech savvy population like India and Pakistan had in the 60's. Complex machinery needs technically savvy crews. Soviet T-62's with thier ballistic computers presented the same problems to the Arabs in 67 and 73. So all in all the Indians had the usable technology edge, plus were on the defensive and had a healthy does of respect for the Pakistani formations. The Pakistanies had numbers and courage, but the Patton farm shows just how little that means against a dug in enemy. other questions 1- Did the Indian's have time to set out ranging stakes and make up range cards, that would give them a huge edge. Amazing how useful white paint can be on the defensive. 2- does anyone have any info on the actual models each side had in the fight and how they were employed. I bing this up because the Pakistanis attackign would shoot the closest enemy but the Indians should have put thier cents with thier long range gun behind the Shermans. This means the Pattons were firing on Sherman's while being fired on by Cents. If the Indian's had range markers and Sherman's soaking the Pattons fire the Pakistanis didn't really have a chance.