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Originally Posted by glyn
A military professional who knows nothing at all about tanks (and proves it with his statements) wishes to take Wikipedia over the proven experience of those who were qualified on the Centurion? No surprise there. Peacetime soldier? Who is that person you keep referring to?
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The same Joe so who is audacious to state
"I have never heard anyone, anyone militarily knowledgeable that is, claim the Patton series of tanks to be "far superior" to the Centurion".
The weak arguments that Wikipedia is no answer indicate how peacetime uniform donning soldiers, and that too aviators, speak so audaciously authoritatively on the use of weapons systems in combat! Since you are such a well read person, old boy, do prove where it is wrong and do quote the wonderful books you have read and the chapters thereof! And, in the interim, do read the accounts of the war from various Pakistani and Indian military personnel who participated in the war! That is , if you were not there personally, which I cannot put it beyond you and your fairy tale military knowledgeable status!
Of course, if you know more than them, then that is a different matter and the imperial nose in the air know more since they were the imperial rulers, notwithstanding that they know nothing! Must grant that those who know nothing ( with self satisfying arrogance) feed fat their fond delusions!
With all due regards and bated breath one wonders if these ‘wonders of imagined combat’ have seen any intense and gripping combat beyond the movie screens? Worse still, have they learnt anything even from these?
And is combat the same as peacetime 'enactment'? If so, I presume children who are excellent at video games of war, should be made Generals and the uniformed pensioned off or put to pasture! How can anyone discuss issues that they have never seen? It is like discussing God and these blokes demand attention that they have seen God!
Why the Wikipedia reference?
The Wikipedia reference was appended (to please to their gills the Doubting 'knowledgeable' Thomases and peacetime knowalls) because one could not append books/ chapters on the Indo Pak War.
It is extraordinary that those who comment so 'expertly', bursting the banks of ‘military knowledge’, have no clue about the Indo Pak War and the experiences given thereof in the various books by both Indian and Pakistani officers and others more knowledgeable than this "Wonder of the world of the Wars under review"; and are the types are quick to wax eloquence over minor skirmishes of WW I (that is where there mind is entombed!). I concede that books cost money these days and one cannot afford to have a personal library!
It is high time that western over hyped self appointed pundits shake themselves of the shackles that 'real' wars are fought by western nations and they are the know all! Indeed, Iraq proves how arrogance sours reality and that they know bugger all! The Kashmir foreign assisted Islamic insurgency should indicate how things take time to be mended and that how one does not turn tail, when things get difficult as in Iraq! One has to battle on the legacy one inherits and we inherited this legacy thanks to the British as the British inherit it by being a poodle! None should cry over spilt milk and instead battle on and not turn tail!
If turning tail was the answer, then India should have abandoned Kashmir as should Pakistan have the NWFP, Balochistan and Northern Territories! Patience and being down to earth instead of imperial arrogance over like 'darkies and natives running wild and nude' is the answer!
Saw what happened to the Koreans in Afghanistan! The Colonial days are over, old relic! The spreading of the Gospel and winning an Islamic Empire by the sword is as old as the Stonehenge! Modernity and education has hit the world. No longer are the nude natives running wild in the 'dark' cares of the world!
Wake up and smell the coffee! Add a few muffins and cones, for old Imperial time’s sake!
The technical details from the other source should be indicative of merely the technical issues which indicate technically the difference and better gear. The peacetime soldier should also realise that unlike in a firing range, the 'target' does not hang around the whole day to take aim and be fired at! I daresay the said peacetime soldier would understand that in combat, the 'target' is but fleeting and the gunner who has the range right would be the winner and a laser range finder does magnificently than other 'aids'! But then, everyone does not have combat experience even if they are 'Zorros' and Wild Bill Hickco-cks on the peacetime firing ranges!
In so far, as:
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Following that was Troop training where the tanks of a troop would be working together. After that came Squadron training when the troops were acting as a Squadron. The bigger and longer Regimental exercises followed where all the Squadrons were out (along with other elements such as recce troop). Next on the agenda was Brigade training where all the Regiments (armour, infantry, artillery etc) were working as a Brigade. Next it was Divisional training where all the brigades were working under the divisional commander. Finally it was Corps training when all the divisions were melded into 1(BR) Corps. The army exercises were matched in BAOR by the 2ndTAF. Into this busy schedule the NATO competitions were held. It was often a relief for a unit to leave BAOR to be sent on active service, and the British Army saw plenty of that too, in many parts of the world.
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This is an old hat that is being spewed as if it is something extraordinary and singular! I wouldn't be surprised if the Fijian Army does the same! ROFLMAO!
This is common place in both the Indian and Pakistani Armies. It is done annually! And how many times does the BAOR undertake the same?
Example: The Brass Tacks crisis (a mere exercise) between India and Pakistan took place between November 1986 and March 1987. With the crisis peaking in January 1987, India had deployed 400,000 troops, or about half the Indian army, within 100 miles of Pakistan.
Brass Tacks
Peacetime soldiers should understand the magnitude of subcontinental peacetime exercise! What was the 'extent' of the BAOR exercise?
It is presumptuous to imagine that the Indian and the Pakistani Armies are in the days of the musket and ball!
Further, it would be adequate to state that British Generals visit India to learn of combat and CI experiences and I had the privilege of briefing none other than General Sir Michael Rose, then AG of the British Army and who was assigned to take over in the Balkans. I dare say that there are some who would like to pass off as experts besting the good General! If indeed that is true that British aviators are better than their General, it is an interesting 'discovery', to say the least!
The US Army trains in Indian Army schools of instruction and undertake exercises too! So, let us stop walking with the nose in the air! Hardly any reason to do so since the facts speak otherwise!
Competitions are also very much on the cards in the Indian Army and I daresay, the Pakistani Army (after all they are the legatees of the British Army way! And anyway, British Army traditions are what keeps us in good stead) and they are so routine that one does not make a song and dance over them since the Indian Army is in a state of ‘constant combat readiness’ given the sub continental scenario! I agree that those who have no idea of the sub continent would find it hard to imagine that. BAOR, in comparison, is a ball to the Indo Pak environment
And pray what is "active service" for a peacetime Army as the British Army? I sure would love to learn about it so that I am more 'military knowledgeable', claiming to be no 'Mr Knowall" as some claim with such 'knowledgeless' aplomb!
Rue the day when GB Shaw’s chocolate cream soldiers become experts to comment on equipment in combat!
In so far as Laser Rangefinders, one has to see it in the context of those times. It made a world of difference when ranging. Peacetime range 'wonders' would be hard pressed to understand that!
In addition, a better and more powerful engine and a larger ‘turnaround’ before fuelling was a greater asset in the Indo Pak scenario since, in those days, the A1 and A2 echelons were hard pressed to keep pace. But then, what would BAOR wizards of 'combat' understand? They are the Real McCoys and war experience is passé!
One has to understand the Indo Pak scenario, the terrain (deserts and plains with canals and DCBs) to comprehend the issue of being ‘far superior’.
Any militarily knowledgeable person would realise that and not superimpose the European scenario to behave haughtily with misplaced arrogance of being a ‘knowall’ on everything on earth with ‘earthshaking’ one liners!
Even a non-military knowledgeable person is well aware that is 'man behind the gun' who makes the difference! Nothing really earth shakingly brilliant an observation!
I find it most amusing when relics of the British Raj condescend and talk with their nose in the air and prove that saying about being a ‘frog in the well’!
We must dare to think about unthinkable things because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless.
I am not aware of what it is in the British Army, but Indian Army officers, whatever be their arm or service have to be aware of the "Combined Arms" Concept. The Indo Pak scenario would be real hard on the person who understand his own Arm alone!
If it were not so, the Infantry Generals would not command Armoured Division and vice versa!
Or Musharraf, an artillery man, command an Army!
It may interest you that the Colonel could tell you something about the Indian Army that may shock your concept of how an army is structured or organised or is capable of tasks that classically is different!
So, to me a tank is not something that is to be preserved in the museum, but an instrument that assist in furthering the concept of war (warfighting in US terms!)
The bane of military thinking is taking equipment being the exclusive domain of experts! Nitty gritties of mechanical moving of such equipment maybe the preserve of a few, but not its employment! The Army that thinks that 'an' equipment is beyond their understanding is, in my opinion, is all set out for a disaster!
Dave,
No quibbles with you!
I appreciate your view since it speaks of experience as you know, sans the pomposity of a 'knowall' knowing nothing of combat!! You won't find me commenting on your post!
I am commenting on the British officer class who are so covered with self importance without knowing a damn about life!
Though the modern British Army officers are not so pompous. My own cousin is a Dragoons officers!
It is like self appointed peacetime coves telling an Iraq Veteran that he knows bugger all!
I must say that British officers are examples of pomposity par excellence who do not have their feet firmly on the ground!
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The standard shoot gave a spread anyway (Fire at estimated range, add 200, Fire drop 400 Fire). I bet one of your 3 Hesh or one of APDS would have done the job.
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Heavens!
To the Officer of the Realm!
Is there something that could be beyond this standard procedure of how to apply tank fire?
How juvenile to give standard stuff....take your rifle, put it on the shoulder, close one eye, take aim. Fire!
And pretend it is something oh Wow!
It is actually oh wow! to those who not well trained and to them it is something fabulously new!
And it is not that I don't understand even aviation. I had my own military helicopter (yes, old boy, my own!) and have done extensive flying!
And to hear these Knowalls and hopeless peacetime humbugs!
WHAT A GAS!