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Originally Posted by deadkenny
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, as we're not likely to see any Hungarian 'knights' vs. Roman legion battles in the foreseeable future. 
The Roman manipular formation was 'looser' than a phalanx formation for example - a sort of 'checker board' formation with intentional 'gaps' that provided great flexibility of maneuver (far more than a phalanx for example). My understanding of the 'pilum' is that it was not suitable for use as a 'pike'. It was shorter for one thing, and intended to be thrown. It also had an extended iron 'spearhead' that was intended to 'bend' once it had penetrated an opponent's armour or shield, thereby encumbering him but not being reusable by the opponent. Once the legionare had thrown his pilum he would close in with the shortsword. It was not my intention to state that Rome was unable to ever defeat any contemporary foe with cavalry, but they did in fact have more difficulty with them than they did against predominately infantry foes. Further, the Hungarian knights of almost an entire millenium later would have been far ahead of Rome, or Roman contemporaries, in terms of equipment - whether that's swords, shields, lances, stirrups or fortifications and siege engines. I do not believe that any advantage in Roman 'organization' would have been sufficient to overcome that. |
The pilum was sturdy enough to penetrate armor or sheild with just the power of a single throwing arm. ye sit would deform to render it useless and unusable for return fire and to make continued carryingof the sheild impractical, however imagine that hardened armor piercing tip impacting a pony or horse warrior with a 1000lbs of charging horse behind it.
As for technology, the armor of the Hungarian knight was probalby of inferior quality, it was made over long winter nights by the warriors themselves or local smiths of questionable ability. Rome was an industrial power with standardized levels of equipment and quality produced by dedicated craftsmen who were well versed in their trade. A Roman armorer didn't make mail as a side job.
Hungarian mail was a double mail and covered more of the body, but it was still iron (of questiopnable smithing) and was very heavy and restricted mobility. Roman mail or segmentata was not the principle defensive technology, that belongs to the Scutum that was far in advance of any medievil shield, and the shield also acted as a weapon and the lighter weight of the legionares protection increased mobility. The Roman legionare was also in superb physical condition, the knight maybe, maybe not.
from the time of Constantine to the Mongol invasion, military technology evolved, but it did not progress.
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Here is a reason why a single Mongolian Tumen (10,000 troops) under Subutai can beat any army a Romans can field.
Mobility and Disciline
The ability to appear suddenly without warning cannot be underestimated. People get so caught up with firepower and defence that they forget the third factor of mobility.
Superior mobility provides the Mongolian Tumen the best chance of victory such as:
1.) choosing the time and place to fight
2.) fighting only when it has an advantage, retreating when it doesn't
3.) lead to better terrain scanning
4.) faster way of figuring out at which route to march an army
5.) faster assimiliation of local knowledge
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10,000 men vs armies of 50,000+ legionares and support troops. I don't think so.
1-10,000 men is not enough to affec tthe reduction of the Roman cities and centers of gravity.
2- Roma has superior strategic mobility along the coast, and untouchable stragtic depth in North Africa, Greece (Thermopylae anyone), Britian, Spain and Italy, Scicily, sardina, Corsica etc. None of these areas will sustain a horse army for long.
3- Rome had great commanders every bity as good as Sudedei namely Scipio, Julius Ceaser, Maximus etc.
4- Roman discipline and professional standards were every bit as high as the Mongols
5- No one beat Rome when it came to copying new technologies and ideas.
6- Rome knew its own Terrain and the road system made the legiosn nearly as fast as the Tumen overland.
7- in the logn run the very durable legion could outmarch a Tumen once the Mongols remuda was worn down through loses or campaigning.