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Old 08-24-2004, 14:20 PM   #39 (permalink)
Praxus
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: 08-26-03
Posts: 3,237
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Cicero's dedication to liberty, eh?

That's rich, considering the fact he was a slaveowner himself. The rest is a rehash of 6th century B.C. Roman history.
Cicero had a slave named Tiro, he released Tiro at around age fifty And Quintus(his brother I beleive?) wrote a letter to him ,"I am truly grateful for what you have done about Tiro, in judging his former condition to be below his deserts and preferring us to have him as a friend rather than a slave. Believe me, I jumped for joy when I read your letter and his. Thank you, and congratulations."

This being said I do not believe either Cicero or Caeser beleived the institution of slavery was wrong as it was normative. The issue of slavery does not seperate either Cicero or Caeser.

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You have contradicted yourself. You said, "the ends do not justify the means." Either you believe it, or you don't. You are clearly making an exception when it comes to Cicero, you said that his suspending of the Roman constitution, executing four men without trial, imposing martial law, etc., were all OK.
I said "The end's don't justify means". I believe his means to his disired end were moral. So I don't see how that belief contradicts my statement.

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Caesar helped to improve the Roman economy, by forcing landowners to hire freemen as a third of their workers. If you have studied Roman history to any extent, you'll discover that there were masses of urban poor who were miserable and desperate. Slavery was not beneficial to the Roman economy, in addition, slavery is one of the most extreme violations of individual liberty. By forcing landowners to hire freemen, he helped to reduce the demand for slaves. He cut the number of people dependent on state welfare from 300,000 to 150,000 (welfare reform, always a good thing, right?).
He didn't do it to reduce the demand for slaves he did it to gain favor among of the freemen. This being said, every nation of the time allowed slavery. My point is that like our founding fathers (many of which owned slaves) Cicero Philosophicly took a large step foward.

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Caesar also massively expanded citizenship, thus enfrachising people. He expanded the right to vote to the people of several provinces, including much of Gaul.
The right to vote for what?

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He did away with the corrupt tax system (the tax collectors of the day were extortionists and kept most of the money) and instituted an effective way of collecting taxes.
All taxes are extortion, there is no moral difference between an individual doing it and a Government.

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Caesar restored rights to all those who had had them proscribed by Sulla when he had been dictator some 40 years before. He even protected the Jews, a people very much persecuted throughout history.
What rights?

Now sure Caeser and Augustus took some postitive steps fowards but there is no question that Cicero was a greater supporter of Individual Rights and the Republican form of Government. Only Cato (the younger) could be compared to Cicero in his dedication to liberty (philosophicly) during that time period. In fact our founding fathers based their ideas of Government off of Cato and Cicero.

Last edited by Praxus : 08-24-2004 at 14:27 PM.
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