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Originally Posted by Tronic
Western Culture???
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What are you asking?
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What about all those Greek and Roman invasions of the East???
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What about them? The fact that the Romans and Greeks invaded the Middle East does not change the fact that Persians attacked Greece and Rome. This returns to my original point that the pre-Islamic Persians were enemies of Western culture embodied in Greece and Rome.
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And later on the Islamic invasions, also a Western entity, which wasn't only a threat but which actually DID destroy Eastern culture...
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I think you misunderstand the usage of the term 'Western'. It seems that you think anything to the west of the Hindu Kush or some region thereabout counts as 'Western.' Under that argument, if something isn't from India or the Far East, it must be Western. This is not how the term Western is usually applied today.
In the 20th century, 'The West' referred to "the non-Communist countries of Western Europe and the Americas." [1] While this is admittedly far after the time period we have been discussing, it does reveal that the West usually means Western Europe (Catholic & Protestant Europe) and the Americas. Implicit in the argument is that the concept of the West is inseperable from a Christian religious tradition. This does not mean that everyone in the West is religious. It does mean that Christianity played an important part in the development of those lands.
I urge you to investigate the ideas of Samuel P. Huntington who introduced the ideas of 'Clash of Cultures' in a
Foreign Policy article and a book entitled,
The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order [2]. Huntington believes that the future will be shaped by conflicts between different cultures. Whether or not that is the case is irrelevant. What is telling is that he divided the world into seven or eight cultural regions and Islam and the Western world were two very different regions. In fact, he had this to say about the borders of the Muslim region of Earth:
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"In Eurasia the great historic fault lines between civilizations are once more aflame. This is particularly true along the boundaries of the crescent-shaped Islamic bloc of nations from the bulge of Africa to central Asia. Violence also occurs between Muslims, on the one hand, and Orthodox Serbs in the Balkans, Jews in Israel, Hindus in India, Buddhists in Burma and Catholics in the Philippines. Islam has bloody borders." (Clash of Civilizations, original 1993 Foreign Affairs article)"
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An easy introduction into Huntington's ideas can be gotten from the Wikipedia page on 'Clash of Civilizations'. I urge you to look at the different cultures that he has outlined. While the ideas of one man are not enough to demarcate all of history, his ideas are instructive.
If you can't see the difference between paintings of the Italian renaissance and Islamic calligraphy, or the difference between Chatres Cathedral and Imam Ali Shrine, or the difference between Voltaire and Rumi, I don't think this conversation will go far. The Muslim world is not culturally Western. It never has been and it never will be.
If you insist that The Middle East and Western Europe are one cultural bloc, then I will be dissapointed in you.
One more thing, no Western or Islamic power has ever destroyed Eastern culture as you put it. In fact, the Christian West had little impact on the Far East until the last two centuries. Islam's contact with India was important, and it had a few passing blows and Chinese imperial territory (Talas River 751 AD), but Indian and Chinese culture has survived.
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Well, if it is so, then it is only one Wetern entity, trying to wipe out other Western cultures. Islam is the same Western entity which has been vigorously involved in dismantling the East in the modern world AND back in history.... The only real threat the West faced from a true Eastern entity were the Mongols....
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This statement is a gross and inaccurate simplification of world history. You seem to think its all of the Mediterranean Basin & The Middle East versus China and India. That is not true at all.
I'll adress your comment about the Mongol's below.
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Far from being Western??? Thats incorrect, since Islam IS one of the Western entities. Only difference is that Islam is one Wetern entity which failed to evolve with time whereelse the other Western entities like Christianity did. However, both Islam and Christianity do share the same "spread around the world" ideology. Only difference is that in the past, both Christianity and Islam used to convert by the sword, and now only Christianity out of the two has evolved out of its violent path. That does not make Islam an Eastern entity. The Eastern religions are Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Jainism, etc, and Islam is certainly not a part of them. We have seen millions killed in the name of Islam and we have seen millions killed in the name of Christianity, only difference is that the latter has evolved. How many Eastern religions did/do you see that went arouund giving people a choice to either convert or die... Even the Mongols (primarily Buddhists), did not force their own religion on the ones they conquered. That is why, the Mongol Empire always consisted of so many religions. So Islam infact has more in common with Christianity then it does with any Eastern religions...
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Your criticism of the violence of Christianity or Islam is irrelevant and strays from our point. We are not discussing the merits of one religion versus the Far Eastern or Indian religions.
Furthermore, any discussion of the Far East or India is irrelevant. I wrote my post to support and clarify what Swift Sword said about pre-Islamic Persia being just as much of a threat against the West and Islamic Persia was:
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Originally Posted by Swift Sword
IIRC, Iran under its ancient identity was still a "threat to the West" and engaged in wars with its neighboors [sic].
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I have demonstrated that this is true because the ancient Persian empires assaulted the precursors of Western culture - Greece and Rome. Swift Sword and myself (If I may speak for him here) are not concerned with the Far East, which was largely irrelevant to the conflict between ancient Persia and Greece and Rome.
Relative to the European civilizations of Greece and Rome, Persia, Zoroastrian or Islamic, is culturally and geographically part of the East.
Relative to the largely Christian realms of Western Europe and the Americas, as well any many former European colonies, the Middle East is culturally distinct.
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So? Again, all I see is one Western entity killing another... Tell me when you find Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Taos, (in other words REAL Eastern religions) coming after Western civilization....
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Again, irrelevant. I'm talking about the clash of Middle Eastern civilization with Western civilization. I have defined those terms concisely above and I am not dealing with the Far East or India. Furthermore, I am uninterested in comparing the tenets of Islam or Christianity with the teachings of Buddha, Mahavira, Lao Tzu, or Krishna.
Let's stay on topic.
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Notes:
1.
The Random House Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, Unabridged. New York: Random House, 1987. ISBN 0-394-56500-2
2. Huntington, Samuel P.
Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order.