Quote:
Originally posted by Ray
I think. Bush and his cronies had Praxus's mindset. They exepected flowers and garlands to greet.
Initially it did. Then Paraxus's mindset took effect and it became a balls up.
Enemity amongst the Moslem sects got united! You have to live amongst the Moslem to realise the divide amongst the Moslems i.e Shias and Sunnis. They are now thanking Praxus type of mindset for showing the way. Vison told me there are 73 Islamic sects and a Msolem friend told me that it is all balls. Islam cannot be reinterpreted beyond the scriptures unlike others. What the Prophet said is the last word.
I am not a Moslem. I sure would Like Visioninthe dark to inform folks here of the dangers that are there in this type of action in Iraq since the Ironman has assured us that he is a sane voice. Vision bring in sanity. God said let there be light and there was light. So, show some light Vision even if you are not God!
Don't underestimate the undercurrent. Let Vision give us Vision.
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I am sorry it took me so much time to participate in this thread ... personally I didn't know what was going on here ... until Ironman sent me a PM and alerted me to this post ...
so ... I'll try to add my perspective here ...
first ... I think it is ONLY fair that I let the members know that ALTHOUGH I AM NOT AN ARAB ... AT ALL ... I am a Muslim and a SHIA MUSLIM at that ...
therefore, I belong to the MINORITY SECT IN ISLAM ...
I would also like to point out that MY VIEWS are STRICTLY THAT ---> "MY" VIEWS ...
every human being is a product of MULTIPLE influences and thus any OPINION from any ONE INDIVIDUAL cannot be generalized and taken as being that of a WHOLE SECT OR GROUP ...
Being a SHIA MUSLIM ... I can safely claim to have better understanding of what MOTIVATES the SHIA mindset ... but I am sure that THERE WILL BE SHIAS WHO WILL DISAGREE WITH MY POINT OF VIEW ...
What I'll try to do is present a view that I think is the general middle-of-the-road shia thinking ...
in this way ... I will be able to safely say ... that the views I present on the TOPIC are shared by the majority of SHIAS around the WORLD ..
so here goes ...
before I respond to this topic, let me point out to ray that there are 73 SECTS within Islam ... I even PROVIDED a link to a site which LISTED them all and the differences between them ... The person who told Ray ... that there wern't 73 SECTS in Islam ... himself KNOWS that they are there ... but since Ray is NOT a muslim ... that person was taking ADVANTAGE of this fact and trying to PRESENT RAY with a homogeneous picture ... which even that person know ... is far from the truth ...
now,
before I talk about the SHIAS in Iraq ... let me provide you with a brief BACKGROUND about the SHIAS ...
the SHIAS are a SECT in Islam that comprise roughly 25% of the Muslim world ... they are MOSTLY located IN NON-ARAB countries such as Iran, Pakistan, India, etc ... although there are SHIAS in the arab world too ... such as in Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Bahrain where they are a STRONG Majority and also in saudi arabia where they are an EXTREMELY OPRESSED AND BRUTALIZED MINORITY ...
the difference between the shias and the sunnis started with the death of Prophet Mohammed ... and the fight for his succession ...
the SHIAS thought that it was the RIGHT of ALI to be the successor since he was famous for his strength, tolerance, wisdom, and support of the PROPHET and ISLAM ... while the sunnis thought that ANYONE COULD BE THE SUCCESSOR ...
anyways ... the sunnis HAD THE UPPERHAND FROM THE BEGINNING ... except for a VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME WHEN ALI DID OFFICIALLY BECOME KHALIF OF THE ISLAMIC STATE UNTIL HE WAS MURDERED ... the shias never had any POLITICAL PATRONAGE OR POWER and were therefore always OPPRESSED since they were the main OPPOSITION to the rulers ... and since the society was NOT democratic ... OPPOSITION TO THE RULERS WAS PUNISHABLE BY EXECUTION AND DEATH ...
throughout, ISLAMIC HISTORY there were many, sustained and repeated attempts by the rulers to EXTERMINATE the SHIA opposition
the MOST famous being the attempt to KILL every single MEMBER OF ALIS FAMILY some years following his death, ALL HIS FAMILY WAS KILLED IN A MOST BRUTAL FASHION
except for one grandson
who was so weak from illness that he was taken for dead
through him
ALIS lineage continues
this occasion is still OBSERVED by SHIAS with sorrow as you may have seen on TV in the Iraqi cities of KERBALA and NAJAF and all over the Islamic world were shias are present
this attempt to KILL ALL OF ALIS PROGENY is the corner-stone of SHIA IDENTITY
since shias believe that to remain LOYAL to ISLAM
they must commemorate this event ANNUALLY so that they do NOT forget the sacrifice made by Alis progeny simply to keep the VOICE of TRUTH alive AGAINST OPRESSIVE RULERS
The consequence of this continued OPPRESSION and lack of freedom was that the SHIAS
like any OTHER MINORITY that is OPPRESSED over HISTORY (such as for example the Jews)
ORGANIZED THEMSELVES INTO A VERY TIGHT, DISCIPLINED, INSTITUTIONALIZED GROUP
Therefore
even today
SHIA CLERGY IS MUCH MORE INSTITUTIONALIZED, DISCIPLINED AND FORMAL
than the remaining sunni Moslems
FOR THE SHIAS THIS WAS A NECESSITY TO SURVIVE
Just so that those who are NOT Moslems may understand
THE SHIA CLERGY IS HIGHLY INSTITUTIONALIZED AND DISCIPLINED
very similar to what Christians have in the Catholic Church
this is just an example
so that you can get the picture
Another result of always being OPRESSED and BRUTALIZED was that shias TEND TO TAKE ORDERS FROM THE CLERY AS BEING THEIR RELIGIOUS DUTY AND STICK TO THEM
this again
can be put down to survival tactics
The CLERGY itself is VERY DISCIPLINED AND FOLLOWS STRICT RULES AND NO DECISION IS PASSED UNLESS A TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONSENSUS IS ARRIVED AT
totally unlike sunni clery
where ANYONE can pass a RELIGIOUS DECREE
There are TWO MAIN SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT in shia Islam
one being the Najaf-based (Iraq) school of THOUGHT that BELIEVES in the SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
CURRENTLY BEING HEADED BY GRAND AYATOLLAH SISTANI
and the other being the Qom-based (Iran) school of thought that believes in a more MIXED ROLE between church and state
Shias ARE ABSOLUTELY FREE TO CHOOSE WHICH THEY SUBSCRIBE TO ... there is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPULSION
The vast majority of SHIAS subscribe to the Najaf-based school of thought which believes in the separation of Church and state
The only main exception being the Islamic state of Iran where the GOVERNMENT itself believe in the Qom-based school of thought
reasons best known to them
All these characteristics of the SHIAS as well as the fact that they were continuously OPPRESSED
lead the majority sunni believing that the shias wre some sort of sect that had exited Islam
since the sunnis were NEVER ORGANIZED in this manner
and since power was always in the hands of sunni rulers throughout history
they made sure that they spread misinformation against the shias so as to minimize opposition to their despotic regimes
and the best way for those rulers was to present the shias as if they were some sort of UNISLAMIC CULT
which cant be farther from the truth
There always used to be problems against shias specially in states where they were a minority
but since the rise of Saudi WAHABBISM (a sect to whom all the fifteen WTC bomber terrorists belonged to)
and the discovery of OIL in saudia
these differences took on a more VIOLENT turn all over the Islamic world
where these terrorist extremists refused to accept the EXISTENCE of shias and went all out to KILL them ONE-BY-ONE
another reason being that the majority of Shias were NON-ARAB and the sunni arabs felt that to continue their dominance of Islam they had to exterminate as many NON-ARAB shias as possible
evidence of this can be found in the massacres conducted by saddam in Iraq
OBL in Afghanistan and Pakistan
and all over
Now,
This is the first time in History that some state actually liberated the shias and as such the action by the US was welcomed whole-heartedly by EVERY SHIA ON THIS PLANET
since the enemies of the US were also the same people who were BUSY ANNIHILATING the shias everywhere
The shias actually saw light in a DEMOCRATIC IRAQ
It was the first time in History that they could be free
THANKS TO THE US
They saw a NATURAL ALLY in the US
but,
When they practiced this freedom
when this JUNIOR CLERIC started up a newspaper
and opposed the US
the US immediately banned his paper
This lead to DEMONSTRATIONS that were in favour of FREEDOM and against BANNING the paper
What happened then was that the demonstrators were fired upon by COALITION TROOPS and many were killed
This lead to the fears of the shias being ignited
they felt afraid that ONCE AGAIN
they were being KILLED simply for trying to EXPRESS an OPINION in a newspaper
their nightmare of 1400 year
seemed to be coming back to haunt them
where once again they were being silenced by the barrel of a gun
this fear lead to a knee-jerk reaction against the COALITION FORCES
But,
I predict that since the shias know that their main enemy are the forces of extremism who wish to silence them
they are in the same boat with the US and you will see very shortly that this JUNIOR cleric will be ordered to stop all action against the coalition forces
which he is duty-bound to obey
The only thing is that the US should realize that the shias are frightened of once again loosing their freedom and so should form a working relationship with their religious institutions and assure them that this time
for the first time in history
they will have their freedom
once that is done
the US will have NO PROBLEMS WITH THE SHIAS AT ALL
And, yes,
All this talk of SHIAS and SUNNIS extremist/wahabbis getting together
is just pure B/S
how can the victim and the oppressor become buddies
it wont happen
take my word for it
I know this is a long post
but I hope this can help you guys gain a better INSIGHT into the shia mindset