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05-08-2008, 00:26 AM
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#76 (permalink)
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Lord High Hullabalooster
Senior Contributor
Join Date: 11-23-04
Location: Columbia Heights, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAD_333
Why? Because facts may arise or old ones turn out false.
You don't have ALL the facts; you have media reports, selected snippets of sermons, pundit opinions, and so on.
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Sure, but I don't live my life on the fence about things. I categorize and move on. Right now the Obamas are not what I consider to be patriots. At some time in the future new info may come to light and I might change my mind. But who really cares about my opinion on that anyway?
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That's enough to form an opinion, which you have. But if new facts come along or old ones turn out to be wrong, what will you say? Don't bother me with the facts; I have my mind made up?
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They'd have to be pretty significant facts to change my mind, yes.
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Interesting qualifier you put after "country": "as it is". Interesting because no one who is politically involved in elective politics from office seekers to voters loves their country AS IT IS.
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I see where you're going but I disagree right at the start. Pols of course want to shape the country around their particular ideas, but asid from the rather easy semantic bobble of "what if the pol just votes to keep things as they are?", I honestly think there are a lot of basics that most pols agree on and don't want to change. So "as it is" was a valid qualifier for me to use.
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Just so you don't misunderstand me, I am talking about "country" not as landscape, but as government, social structure, and all that. If we loved it AS IT IS we wouldn't be trying to change it. It follows then that a patriot, who is defined in part by love of country, would never permit change because he loves it AS IT IS. If this is true, then office seekers and voters are not patriots. But the truth is we love what our country stands for: its values, its freedoms, its culture, its accomplishments, and its ability to adapt to new challenges.  You're wrong about Obama.
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If I am, he's failed to convince me of it. And so have you, and you're doing a far better job of trying. 
-dale |
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05-08-2008, 00:56 AM
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#77 (permalink)
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Defense Professional
Join Date: 04-15-07
Location: Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalem
Sure, but I don't live my life on the fence about things. I categorize and move on. Right now the Obamas are not what I consider to be patriots. At some time in the future new info may come to light and I might change my mind. But who really cares about my opinion on that anyway?
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That answers my question. You do have an open mind, but then I already knew that.
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They'd have to be pretty significant facts to change my mind, yes.
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You may well find out one way or th'other in the next few years.
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I see where you're going but I disagree right at the start. Pols of course want to shape the country around their particular ideas, but asid from the rather easy semantic bobble of "what if the pol just votes to keep things as they are?", I honestly think there are a lot of basics that most pols agree on and don't want to change. So "as it is" was a valid qualifier for me to use.
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Now wait a second. I thought I made it clear I wasn't talking about changing basic values, and so on, or about politicians trying to shape the country to fit their own ideas. I was talking about fixing problems. For example, AS IT IS today, the country has problems like the deficit, job loss, high fuel costs, and others. We can reject the AS IS and do something about those problems without diminishing our love of country or patriotism. That's what I meant.
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If I am, he's failed to convince me of it. And so have you, and you're doing a far better job of trying.
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You can't convince a contrarian, and I don't mean that in any but a respectful way. Maybe we ought to go back to arguing the existence of God.
__________________
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)
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05-08-2008, 08:21 AM
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#78 (permalink)
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DEVOUT BIKER
Military Professional
Join Date: 02-29-08
Location: Missouri, pron"misery"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAD_333
I don't particularly like Clinton or Obama either, but if a gun was put to my head, I'd choose Obama because he runs a tight ship.....
Self-reliance is a common and admirable trait among many Liberatarians. Cheers.
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Well I hope no one puts a gun to your head at the polls!  So does that mean you'll vote for McCain if you don't get coerced? 
And I agree, among many other wonderful ideals and traits
__________________
Don't run, you'll only die tired!
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05-08-2008, 19:53 PM
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#79 (permalink)
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Defense Professional
Join Date: 04-15-07
Location: Virginia
Country:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper
Well I hope no one puts a gun to your head at the polls! So does that mean you'll vote for McCain if you don't get coerced? |
Yes. |
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05-08-2008, 21:29 PM
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#80 (permalink)
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Lord High Hullabalooster
Senior Contributor
Join Date: 11-23-04
Location: Columbia Heights, MN
Country:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAD_333
You can't convince a contrarian, and I don't mean that in any but a respectful way. Maybe we ought to go back to arguing the existence of God. |
That's always fun.
-dale |
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05-09-2008, 09:02 AM
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#81 (permalink)
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DEVOUT BIKER
Military Professional
Join Date: 02-29-08
Location: Missouri, pron"misery"
Country:
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Politics AND Religion. Man, we are breakin' all the rules!  |
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