What if McCain believed in this...? - Page 4

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 00:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

So this is the first time she felt patriotic? The first time she felt love for her country? She's just as bad at pulling her foot out of her mouth as her hubby.

-dale

How the hell do I know if it was the first time. I was speculating. She's a black person, not exactly a bed of roses in our white dominated society with vestiges of discimination still around. I was a bit dismayed when she said what she said, but I am trying to understand her perspective. Improving race relations is a bumpy road. It doesn't help to throw your white perspective on it. Jeez, she feels pride in her country now. Maybe that's a big step for her. Look at it as progress, not as a friggin cancer.

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 00:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

Sir, and JAD, although wearing a flagpin is a relatively new thing, placing your hand over your heard to salute the flag and the anthem is not. Obama refused to do so on many occassions.

While doing so may not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one is loyal a patriotic, not doing so certainly raises questions.

The flag and the anthem transcends our government. They represent the good of America, whether the current administration is good or not. To salute them is the least any citizen can do.

Obama's failure to do so, coupled with all his other antics, led many to question where his loyalty lies.

I have to agree with you. It's dumb on his part to eschew common signs of patriotism and love of country. He's running for president for crying out loud. Why invite the kind of doubts you have about him. If he wants to reinvent how we show respect to flag and country, best he do it after there's no doubt about where he stands.

dalem · 05-06-2008, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Because he wasn't generalizing (yet). To quote him: "Sir I beg to differ. White people have no problems with a black man in power."

Where's the word "most"?

I had to moderate my statement in a follow-on post when called out on it: "The "we" I wrote in "we whites" refers to whites in general." Meaning some, but not all.

Probably Gunnut was generalizing, but he has yet to say so.

Pretty thin reed, there, JAD.

-dale

dalem · 05-06-2008, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

How the hell do I know if it was the first time.

'Cuz she said so?

Quote:

""What we have learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback. And let me tell you something -- for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country."

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I was speculating. She's a black person

Funny. I thought she was an American.

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, not exactly a bed of roses in our white dominated society with vestiges of discimination still around. I was a bit dismayed when she said what she said, but I am trying to understand her perspective. Improving race relations is a bumpy road. It doesn't help to throw your white perspective on it. Jeez, she feels pride in her country now. Maybe that's a big step for her. Look at it as progress, not as a friggin cancer.

That's not progress in my book, it's regress. This country has done more good for the planet than any other in the last few hundred years. How dare she not feel pride in that alone. How dare she.

-dale

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Pretty thin reed, there, JAD.

-dale

You didn't give me much to work with.

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

'Cuz she said so?

No. She said "for the first time" in her adult life. But that is beside the point. You posed two rhetorical questions, to wit: "So this is the first time she felt patriotic? The first time she felt love for her country?" to which I answered "how the hell do I know", to which you replied "Cuz she said so?" Another thin reed, I suppose. Pretty soon, we'll have enough to build a raft.

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Funny. I thought she was an American.

Funny. Americans were eating at the lunch counter while other Americans had to go around back of the restaurant to get their food through a window. Yeah, they were all Americans, but some of them weren't too happy about that. Well, things have gotten a whole lot better for blacks in America; they don't have to go around back anymore. But change didn't happen overnight, and some racial tensions still linger below the surface.

7thsfsniper · 05-06-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

That's not progress in my book, it's regress. This country has done more good for the planet than any other in the last few hundred years. How dare she not feel pride in that alone. How dare she.

-dale

I'll second that Dale! I'd like to hear what the Obamas' really think in plain English. Although expected I'm sure we would still be shocked. Something is not right with these folks, regardless of color.

dalem · 05-06-2008, 13:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

No. She said "for the first time" in her adult life. But that is beside the point. You posed two rhetorical questions, to wit: "So this is the first time she felt patriotic? The first time she felt love for her country?" to which I answered "how the hell do I know", to which you replied "Cuz she said so?" Another thin reed, I suppose. Pretty soon, we'll have enough to build a raft.

Patriotism is love for one's country.

Quote:

Funny. Americans were eating at the lunch counter while other Americans had to go around back of the restaurant to get their food through a window. Yeah, they were all Americans, but some of them weren't too happy about that. Well, things have gotten a whole lot better for blacks in America; they don't have to go around back anymore. But change didn't happen overnight, and some racial tensions still linger below the surface.

So lingering tensions are sufficient to outweigh the freeing of hundreds of millions from tyranny, walking on the moon, curing of many diseases, and the other good stuff we did or had a heavy hand in?

Pretty tough standards from Mrs. Obama. I wonder if standards were as tough for her Princeton admission?

-dale

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 14:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Patriotism is love for one's country.

I agree. But we're getting too far away from the point. She never said she didn't love her country, or wasn't proud of its achievements. She said she felt pride in her country for the first time in her adult life upon seeing the diverse support her hurband, a black man, was getting.

As for my delving into what that means, it is for me a matter of trying to understand what made her say that and why she had no feeling of pride before. If the end result is that there is something sinister in that, so be it, but so far I don't see it. My opposition to her husband has to do with his politics, not her lack of discretion.

Quote:

So lingering tensions are sufficient to outweigh the freeing of hundreds of millions from tyranny, walking on the moon, curing of many diseases, and the other good stuff we did or had a heavy hand in?

I am sorry, Dale, but I am not buying into your interpretation of what I said. My meaning was clear. A class of people was being oppressed in this country all the while those great achievements were unfolding. I am inclined to forgive them for not always feeling the degree of pride you demand of them. What we want is to see that change. Now that America has rejected racial discrimination, and what remaining pockets of it are dwindling, I am glad to see pride coming to that class. I agree, it was impolitic for Obama's wife to say what she said, but an unbiased person could also interpret her words as a good sign--a message to other blacks that the time has come to act and feel like full Americans.

That's my opinion. End of story. Vote McCain.

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 14:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

I'll second that Dale! I'd like to hear what the Obamas' really think in plain English. Although expected I'm sure we would still be shocked. Something is not right with these folks, regardless of color.

It's out there, sniper. Here's one from his book. This guy's basic view of America doesn't scare me at all. Any of the candidates could have written it. As I've said before, his policies worry me. Too much idealism and liberalism. This guy may be our next president. That's why I am trying to get to know him. When the election is done, win or lose, I will in essense support the whoever is president in times of international confrontation, a tradition the dems seem to have made a mockery of the last 4 years in their attacks on Bush for Iraq.

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I think Democrats are wrong to run away from a debate about values, as wrong as those conservatives who see values only as a wedge to pry loose working-class voters from the Democratic base. It is the language of values that people use to map their world. It is what can inspire them to take action, and move them beyond their isolation. The post-election polls [2004]may have been poorly composed, but the broader question of shared values –the standards and principles that the majority of Americans deem important in their lives, and in the life of the country – should be the heart of our politics, the cornerstone of any meaningful debate about budgets and projects, regulations and policies.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Those simple words are our starting point as Americans; they describe not only the foundation of our government but the substance of our common creed. Not every American may be able to recite them; few, if asked, could trace the genesis of the Declaration of Independence to its roots in 18th-century liberal and republican thought. But the essential idea behind the Declaration – that we are born into this world free, all of us; that each of us arrives with a bundle of rights that can't be taken away by any person or any state without just cause; that through our own agency we can, and must, make of our lives what we will – is one that every American understands. It orients us, sets our course, each and every day.

Much of my appreciation of our Bill of Rights comes from having spent part of my childhood in Indonesia and from still having family in Kenya, countries where individual rights are almost entirely subject to the self-restraint of army generals or the whims of corrupt bureaucrats. I remember the first time I took Michelle to Kenya, shortly before we were married. As an African American, Michelle was bursting with excitement about the idea of visiting the continent of her ancestors, and we had a wonderful time, visiting my grandmother up-country, wandering through the streets of Nairobi, camping in the Serengeti, fishing off the island of Lamu.

But during our travels Michelle also heard – as I had heard during my first trip to Africa – the terrible sense on the part of most Kenyans that their fates were not their own. My cousins told her how difficult it was to find a job or start their own businesses without paying bribes. Activists told us about being jailed for expressing their opposition to government policies. Even within my own family, Michelle saw how suffocating the demands of family ties and tribal loyalties could be, with distant cousins constantly asking for favours, uncles and aunts showing up unannounced.

On the flight back to Chicago, Michelle admitted she was looking forward to getting home. "I never realised just how American I was," she said. She hadn't realised just how free she was – or how much she cherished that freedom.

At its most elemental level, we understand our liberty in a negative sense. As a general rule we believe in the right to be left alone, and are suspicious of those – whether Big Brother or nosy neighbours – who want to meddle in our business. But we understand our liberty in a more positive sense as well, in the idea of opportunity and the subsidiary values that help realise opportunity – all those homespun virtues that Benjamin Franklin first popularised in Poor Richard's Almanack and that have continued to inspire our allegiance through successive generations. The values of self-reliance and self-improvement and risk-taking. The values of drive, discipline, temperance, and hard work. The values of thrift and personal responsibility.

These values are rooted in a basic optimism about life and a faith in free will – a confidence that through pluck and sweat and smarts, each of us can rise above the circumstances of our birth. But these values also express a broader confidence that so long as individual men and women are free to pursue their own interests, society as a whole will prosper. Our system of self-government and our free-market economy depend on the majority of individual Americans adhering to these values. The legitimacy of our government and our economy depend on the degree to which these values are rewarded, which is why the values of equal opportunity and nondiscrimination complement rather than impinge on our liberty.

If we Americans are individualistic at heart, if we instinctively chafe against a past of tribal allegiances, traditions, customs, and castes, it would be a mistake to assume that this is all we are.

I value good manners. Every time I meet a kid who speaks clearly and looks me in the eye, who says "yes, sir" and "thank you" and "please" and "excuse me", I feel more hopeful about the country. I don't think I am alone in this. I can't legislate good manners. But I can encourage good manners whenever I'm addressing a group of young people.

The same goes for competence. Nothing brightens my day more than dealing with somebody, anybody, who takes pride in their work or goes the extra mile – an accountant, a plumber, a three-star general, the person on the other end of the phone who actually seems to want to solve your problem. My encounters with such competence seem more sporadic lately; I seem to spend more time looking for somebody in the store to help me or waiting for the deliveryman to show. Other people must notice this; it makes us all cranky, and those of us in government, no less than in business, ignore such perceptions at their own peril.

I recently gave a speech at the Kaiser Family Foundation after they released a study showing that the amount of sex on television has doubled in recent years. Now I enjoy HBO as much as the next guy, and I generally don't care what adults watch in the privacy of their homes. In the case of children, I think it's primarily the duty of parents to monitor what they are watching on television, and in my speech I even suggested that everyone would benefit if parents – heaven forbid – simply turned off the TV and tried to strike up a conversation with their kids.

Having said all that, I indicated that I wasn't too happy with ads for erectile-dysfunction drugs popping up every 15 minutes whenever I watched a football game with my daughters in the room. I offered the further observation that a popular MTV show targeted at teens, in which young people with no visible means of support spend several months getting drunk and jumping naked into hot tubs with strangers, was not "The Real World". I ended by suggesting that the broadcast and cable industries should adopt better standards and technology to help parents control what streamed into their homes.

You would have thought I was Cotton Mather. In response to my speech, one newspaper editorial intoned that the government had no business regulating protected speech, despite the fact that I hadn't called for regulation. Reporters suggested that I was cynically tacking to the centre in preparation for a national race.

...

dalem · 05-06-2008, 16:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

I agree. But we're getting too far away from the point. She never said she didn't love her country, or wasn't proud of its achievements. She said she felt pride in her country for the first time in her adult life upon seeing the diverse support her hurband, a black man, was getting.

Right. She said the first time she felt "really proud" of her country was not until her husband got close to the Presidency. So nothing else her country ever did or was doing had ever made her feel really proud.

Nothing.

Quote:

As for my delving into what that means, it is for me a matter of trying to understand what made her say that and why she had no feeling of pride before. If the end result is that there is something sinister in that, so be it, but so far I don't see it. My opposition to her husband has to do with his politics, not her lack of discretion.

Sinister? I doubt it. Self-involved, incredibly tunnel-visioned, and wildly insufficient? Yes.

Quote:

I am sorry, Dale, but I am not buying into your interpretation of what I said. My meaning was clear. A class of people was being oppressed in this country all the while those great achievements were unfolding. I am inclined to forgive them for not always feeling the degree of pride you demand of them. What we want is to see that change. Now that America has rejected racial discrimination, and what remaining pockets of it are dwindling, I am glad to see pride coming to that class. I agree, it was impolitic for Obama's wife to say what she said, but an unbiased person could also interpret her words as a good sign--a message to other blacks that the time has come to act and feel like full Americans.

...now that a black man is in serious contention for the highest office in the land.

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That's my opinion. End of story. Vote McCain.

-dale

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 19:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Right. She said the first time she felt "really proud" of her country was not until her husband got close to the Presidency.

Perhaps, and why not? It could be that blacks were cyncial about the idea that any natural born American including themselves could be president. And upon seeing that IT was possible, a good deal of that cynicism was washed away.

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So nothing else her country ever did or was doing had ever made her feel really proud.

Nothing.

Did you read the quote from his book I posted? She was damn glad to get back to the US after her visit to Kenya. That's a pretty good indicator that she loves her country and appreciates its values.

On the whole, not many people, white or otherwise feel a constant pulsation of patriotism or love of country until something touches them. I lived 3 years in Spain and had a ball, but every time I came home, I felt a surge of emotion when the plane touched down in the US.

dalem · 05-06-2008, 19:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Perhaps, and why not? It could be that blacks were cyncial about the idea that any natural born American including themselves could be president. And upon seeing that IT was possible, a good deal of that cynicism was washed away.

Did you read the quote from his book I posted? She was damn glad to get back to the US after her visit to Kenya. That's a pretty good indicator that she loves her country and appreciates its values.

On the whole, not many people, white or otherwise feel a constant pulsation of patriotism or love of country until something touches them. I lived 3 years in Spain and had a ball, but every time I came home, I felt a surge of emotion when the plane touched down in the US.

You're making her point far better than she does, frankly. She chose the phrase "first time", not me.

That narrows things down a lot more than your cogent position.

-dale

JAD_333 · 05-06-2008, 20:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

She chose the phrase "first time", not me.

-dale

..."first time in my adult life"... that's a world of difference than just saying "first time"...

Let's agree to disagree and keep an open mind.

7thsfsniper · 05-06-2008, 22:37 PM

JAD,Did you read the quote from his book I posted? Yes, I did.She was damn glad to get back to the US after her visit to Kenya. Of course she was, they also mentioned how thier poor family was bothering themThat's a pretty good indicator that she loves her country and appreciates its values.Whatever the speechwriter writes, I'll tell you what they missed, thier big fancy house, fancy car, fancy job and no pesky money grubbin poor people buggin em.

Check these out! Typical eliteist politician!

YouTube - The audacity of Barack Obama

YouTube - The Audacity of Barack Obama 2

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05-06-2008, 22:37 PM	#60 (permalink)
7thsfsniper DEVOUT BIKER *Military Professional* Join Date: 02-29-08 Location: Missouri, pron"misery" Posts: 480 Country:	*JAD,*Did you read the quote from his book I posted? Yes, I did.She was damn glad to get back to the US after her visit to Kenya. Of course she was, they also mentioned how thier poor family was bothering themThat's a pretty good indicator that she loves her country and appreciates its values.Whatever the speechwriter writes, I'll tell you what they missed, thier big fancy house, fancy car, fancy job and no pesky money grubbin poor people buggin em. Check these out! Typical eliteist politician! YouTube - The audacity of Barack Obama YouTube - The Audacity of Barack Obama 2

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