Cut taxes or spending? - Page 7

ba1025 · 04-25-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Lets look at Richard Dauch, That mean evil capitalist.

In 2002 He was recognized as a Michigan person of the year. A little from that article

So how much money did those $70.00 an hour employees wager? You don't put your own money up and not hope to make big on it. He deserves the raise.
He is also running more than one plant. Its a global operation.In addition to locations in the United States (Michigan, New York, Ohio and Indiana), AAM also has offices or facilities in Brazil, China, Germany, India, Japan,Luxembourg, Mexico, Poland, South Korea, Thailand and the United Kingdom(England and Scotland)

All he is asking is that the union accepts the same wage in his factories that they do in his competitors. Vice 3x higher than the going wage.

They have already signed union agreements with their workers in Mexico and the UK.

Crap, My lawyer only charges me $85.00 an hour. Maybe both of us should have got a job as a $70.00 an hour forklift operator at this plant.

Has the union waived the workers dues, since they are living on strike pay?

Hitler won man of the year does that make him a good man?
All the union is saying is show us the books to justify your need to cut our wages in half. So you are telling me the going wage is 9 dollars an HR???? That would be the 1/3 what he is paying now. In 2002 he wasn't asking his workers to take a 50% pay cut. His reward for taking that company public and BUYING something of value from GM was in the piece of the company he owned. His pay as CEO in 2007 is frankly not connected to owning apiece of the company. i own shares in my company should I ask for a raise because i own a piece of the company???? His workers also took a risk tehy stayed. They didn't jump ship. I'd like your lawyers number my Auto mechanic charges me 85 dollars an hr. My divorce lawyer ion 1998 billed me at 400 dollars an hr. I say again the claims his 28 dolar an hr workers are receiving 40 dollars an hr in non wage compensation are LIES. What's he doing including taxes and other overhead costs???? I also state once again how much of a pay cut have salaried employees been asked to take? 0 sacrifice to save a company is shared

Btw it is a publicly traded company he doesnt own it , it isnt "his" company. he owns stock in it so do many of the workers on strike I am sure

Quote:

But supporters of management counter that America needs to get more in line with the international wage scale.

"The UAW needs to wake up and smell the kung-pow chicken," says one.

When Executive pay gets in line with the rest of the world i will agree with this statement. if American workers need to accept draconian pay cuts to compete with workers worldwide then why don't American salaried workers at these companies and execs at these companies have to make the same adjustments?

Do you know how many Unions WOULDN'T go on strike if a profitable company offered a 50% pay cut while increasing executive compensation? if they want to go overseas...let um. If it was a profitable move they already would of.

i don't think he is a greedy capitalist I think He is the CEO of a publicly traded company. His job is to maximize profit. He has chosen the route of trying to force the Union into huge pay cuts rather than open the company books to prove they needed to accept pay cuts.

That factory is filled with CNC operators and programmers they make precision components they aren't a warehouse of forklift operators. If they are it's a poorly run company.

AGAIN I SAY IF THEY NEED THE PAY CUTS TO SURVIVE WHERE ARE THE SALARIED AND EXEC CUTS

IF THEY NEED TO ADJUST TO GLOBAL WAGES WHY DOESN'T THE EXEC PAY ADJUST TO GLOBAL EXEC PAY????

Shared sacrifice or no sacrifice seems to be a just cause to me. Why should only those who actually make the thing of value all profits are based on make the only sacrifice?

7thsfsniper · 04-25-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ba1025

Hitler won man of the year does that make him a good man?

His people liked him. If you were a member of the nazi party, you probably thought he deserved it. It just depends on if your looking in from the outside. or out from the inside.

ba1025 · 04-25-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

His people liked him. If you were a member of the nazi party, you probably thought he deserved it. It just depends on if your looking in from the outside. or out from the inside.

It was Time magazine man of the Year

**Shek** · 04-25-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ba1025

It was Time magazine man of the Year

Here's a short excerpt from Hitler's selection as Time's Man of the Year. I think it's pretty clear that you're beating up a strawman here.

Man of the Year - TIME

Quote:

It was noteworthy that few of these other men of the year would have been free to achieve their accomplishments in Nazi Germany. The genius of free wills has been so stifled by the oppression of dictatorship that Germany's output of poetry, prose, music, philosophy, art has been meagre indeed.

The man most responsible for this world tragedy is a moody, brooding, unprepossessing, 49-year-old Austrian-born ascetic with a Charlie Chaplin mustache.

***

But other nations have emphatically joined the armaments race and among military men the poser is: "Will Hitler fight when it becomes definitely certain that he is losing that race?" The dynamics of dictatorship are such that few who have studied Fascism and its leaders can envision sexless, restless, instinctive Adolf Hitler rounding out a mellow middle age in his mountain chalet at Berchtesgaden while a satisfied German people drink beer and sing folk songs. There is no guarantee that the have-not nations will go to sleep when they have taken what they now want from the haves. To those who watched the closing events of the year it seemed more than probable that the Man of 1938 may make 1939 a year to be remembered.

ba1025 · 04-25-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shek

Here's a short excerpt from Hitler's selection as Time's Man of the Year. I think it's pretty clear that you're beating up a strawman here.

Man of the Year - TIME

i admit to already knowing that and being willfully misleading but then how is that different than what American Axle has done?

i think a better comparison might be Larry Craig being inducted into the Idaho hall of Fame. No one knew his 'dark" side before they cast the vote to elect him

The claim wages were 150 dollars an hr was a Strawman
the claim wages are 70 dollars is as well
American Axle is obviously happy to include costs that the employee does not benefit from in it's public wage claims.
28.50 and hr doesn't reach 70 when non wage compensation is added in. I am not claiming sacrifice doesn't need to be made by the union.

I do believe a company asking for a 50% wage give back ought to open it's books at the bargaining table to back up claims it's needed to maintain competitiveness. Givebacks may be needed. I do believe if labor is being asked to sacrifice half it's wages salaried employees and executives should be willing to make some sacrifice as well not receiving large raises. Does either belief seem like some leftest philosophical tilt?

Gun Grape · 04-25-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ba1025

All the union is saying is show us the books to justify your need to cut our wages in half.

No, all the union is saying is We want to be paid more than everyone else doing the same job. We want to be paid more that your competitors pay their people. We don't care that that will cause our product to be priced out of the market. We are going to ride your business all the way down. Then complain that our pension fund wasn't fully funded as the company went bankrupt and had to close the plant down.

Quote:

In 2002 he wasn't asking his workers to take a 50% pay cut.

2002. Oh before the economy started taking a down turn? When new car and truck sales were still high. When people were buying trucks faster than they could make them?

In 2002 when their #1 customer(GMNA) posted a 3 Billion Dollar net profit.
No need to cut salaries. But flash forward, In 2007 GM was ready to go under
instead of a net profit they posted a $38.7 Billion loss.

GM loses $38.7B in 2007, offers more buyouts - USATODAY.com

Quote:

GM loses $38.7B in 2007, offers more buyouts
By Sharon Silke Carty, USA TODAY
DETROIT — Even as sales go gangbusters overseas, General Motors (GM) posted a fourth-quarter loss as North American operations continued overshadowing the rest of the company.

GM's 2007 losses of $38.7 billion, the largest for any U.S. automaker ever, primarily reflect a third-quarter tax adjustment that shaved $37.4 billion off the books.

Separately, GM announced Tuesday that it is offering a second round of buyouts to all of its 74,000 United Auto Workers employees in an attempt to move higher-wage workers off plant floors. The buyouts will let GM take advantage of concessions in the new contract that allow it to hire lower-wage workers for some jobs.

The move is an attempt by GM to further reduce bloated North American costs, something it has been trying to do for more than two years since the first round of buyouts were announced. More than 30,000 workers left the company in 2006 buyouts, and GM was able to cut its workforce by 35%.

Although GM wouldn't say how many people it hopes take the new buyout, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger told a local Detroit radio station that he expects about 20,000 jobs to be eliminated.

Hint, when they company that you sell parts to is losing money, and your competitors have cut their cost then you have to do the same. Unlike when everything was fine and dandy and everyone was making money.

Quote:

His reward for taking that company public and BUYING something of value from GM was in the piece of the company he owned.

And he owns the biggest piece

Quote:

His pay as CEO in 2007 is frankly not connected to owning apiece of the company.

It has nothing to do with owning a piece of the company. His pay as CEO is high because he is running a multinational corporation and is ensuring that they turn a profit. You don't just pull some Joe with a Business Degree off the street and have him do the same thing. This guy has
a ton of talent and experience. Thats what he is getting paid for.

Quote:

i own shares in my company should I ask for a raise because i own a piece of the company????

They are called Stock dividends.

Quote:

His workers also took a risk tehy stayed. They didn't jump ship.

Where were they going? His was the first new company in 20 yrs in that area. And over 300 people have put in applications for those jobs if the union decides not to go back to work. Will they go work for his competitors? No, because they will be making the same level of pay that he is trying to get them to take now. Its a buyers market and nobody is buying what the union employees are trying to sell.

Quote:

My divorce lawyer ion 1998 billed me at 400 dollars an hr.

Thats because he was a divorce lawyer

Quote:

I say again the claims his 28 dolar an hr workers are receiving 40 dollars an hr in non wage compensation are LIES. What's he doing including taxes and other overhead costs????

yea, little things like insurance, pension plan, and taxes. You have a problem with that?

You only want a part of the profit but not share in the expense?

Quote:

I also state once again how much of a pay cut have salaried employees been asked to take? 0 sacrifice to save a company is shared

Well we don't know. All we have heard is the union accusations. But, Who is easier to replace? A supervisor or a production worker? Who makes you more money?

Quote:

Btw it is a publicly traded company he doesnt own it , it isnt "his" company. he owns stock in it so do many of the workers on strike I am sure

It was started as his company. Now it is a public traded company, and he owns more stock than anyone else that works there. And I don't know how it is set up, but I bet that if he quits making a profit for his major shareholders they can and will fire his happy butt.

Quote:

Do you know how many Unions WOULDN'T go on strike if a profitable company offered a 50% pay cut while increasing executive compensation? if they want to go overseas...let um. If it was a profitable move they already would of.

It is a profitable company only because of its global plants. The US plants are not profitable nor are they competitive.

Quote:

i don't think he is a greedy capitalist I think He is the CEO of a publicly traded company. His job is to maximize profit. He has chosen the route of trying to force the Union into huge pay cuts rather than open the company books to prove they needed to accept pay cuts.

According to various news reports, he would show the books if the Union would agree to nondisclosure.
A pretty simple step and a smart one if you want to keep a business running.

Quote:

That factory is filled with CNC operators and programmers they make precision components they aren't a warehouse of forklift operators. If they are it's a poorly run company.

And its much easier and faster to make a CNC operator or programmer than it is to make an effective supervisor or CEO. Don't think you are more important that your real worth. And thats what these union employees are doing.

Quote:

IF THEY NEED TO ADJUST TO GLOBAL WAGES WHY DOESN'T THE EXEC PAY ADJUST TO GLOBAL EXEC PAY????

They are not asking to adjust to "Global wages" they are asking to adjust to the same wage scale as their US competitors.

Quote:

Shared sacrifice or no sacrifice seems to be a just cause to me. Why should only those who actually make the thing of value all profits are based on make the only sacrifice?

Fine let them find better jobs.

glyn · 04-25-2008, 09:41 AM

[quote=toemag;488125][quote=glyn;487590]

Glyn, you need to go shooting with myself,

A most generous offer, Tony (and not unexpected from a former member of the First of Track).

The very first parliamentary act undertaken by our present government when they took office was to ban handguns. Pistol shooting was my hobby, and I had invested time and money in getting to a reasonable standard. I shall never forgive them for making my preferred discipline ILLEGAL.

ba1025 · 04-25-2008, 11:03 AM

[quote=Gun Grape;488247]No, all the union is saying is We want to be paid more than everyone else doing the same job. We want to be paid more that your competitors pay their people. We don't care that that will cause our product to be priced out of the market. We are going to ride your business all the way down. Then complain that our pension fund wasn't fully funded as the company went bankrupt and had to close the plant down.

2002. Oh before the economy started taking a down turn? When new car and truck sales were still high. When people were buying trucks faster than they could make them?

In 2002 when their #1 customer(GMNA) posted a 3 Billion Dollar net profit.
No need to cut salaries. But flash forward, In 2007 GM was ready to go under
instead of a net profit they posted a $38.7 Billion loss.

GM loses $38.7B in 2007, offers more buyouts - USATODAY.com

Hint, when they company that you sell parts to is losing money, and your competitors have cut their cost then you have to do the same. Unlike when everything was fine and dandy and everyone was making money. Where did you read their competitors were paying 14.50 an hr? What is exec and salary pay at those competitors

And he owns the biggest piece
It has nothing to do with owning a piece of the company. His pay as CEO is high because he is running a multinational corporation and is ensuring that they turn a profit. You don't just pull some Joe with a Business Degree off the street and have him do the same thing. This guy has
a ton of talent and experience. Thats what he is getting paid for. So if there costs are that much higher than their competitors now then how has he done a good job? Why isn't his CEO pay inline with his competition?

They are called Stock dividends.
That was your justification for his pay not mine...

Where were they going? His was the first new company in 20 yrs in that area. And over 300 people have put in applications for those jobs if the union decides not to go back to work. Will they go work for his competitors? No, because they will be making the same level of pay that he is trying to get them to take now. Its a buyers market and nobody is buying what the union employees are trying to sell. Then let him replace his workers if he can do it and turn a profit. They cant be very skilled if he wants to pay them 14.50 it should be very easy to do. Thwe Union is w/in it's right to strike ratehr than take a 50% pay cut and as long as he hasn't broken labor laws to force a strike they can replace them. Did you know they already conceded to a two tier wage system? Do you believe you raise a family on 14.50? Do you believe that is a good wage for skilled trades?

Quote:

Dauch wants us to take a cut to $14 an hour. I see us being forced to take a cut to $18 or $19. I think a lot of people are scared about the future. My wife works here also, we are both on strike. We saw this coming so we prepared ourselves.”

yes that seems so unreasonable to only take a 25% wage cut....

Thats because he was a divorce lawyer

yea, little things like insurance, pension plan, and taxes. You have a problem with that? Wow you were right but the Union is willing to give back quite a bit to keep the company profitable...how much has the ceo given back to keep the company profitable? oh wait he wants HUGE raises. He wants to be paid MUCH more than the selfsame foreign competition he says his workers have to compete with

Quote:

The latest contract offer from UAW officials to American Axle owners was seen as "disappointing" on Thursday, effectively extending the 6-week strike at GM's key supplier. The company said the UAW offered a "slight improvement" from its previous proposal in talks which resumed on Wednesday, the first time the two sides sat down for formal negotiations in a month.

UAW is asking for figures between $40 and $60 per hour including wages and benefits for the workers it represents, while Axle is prepared to pay about half that, at between $20 and $30. Axle previously paid $73.48 per hour, on average, to each employee, as per the The Detroit News.

Countering the proposal, American Axle offered buyouts for UAW workers who'd prefer to leave the parts manufacturer. Company representatives went on to say the move is required to keep the company competitive with other suppliers, such as Dana and Delphi, who had to cut wages in order to exit bankruptcy. Otherwise, it would have to consider shuttering its original U.S. plants.

The UAW pointed out Axle's $37 million profit in 2007, as well as Chief Executive Richard Dauch's pay package amounting to $10.2 million, indicating the parts supplier is far from the bankruptcy status of its peers.

About 3, 650 American Axle workers represented by the UAW are striking at five plants

Well we don't know. All we have heard is the union accusations. But, Who is easier to replace? A supervisor or a production worker? Who makes you more money?a supervisor makes a company no money they are by definition "overhead" Again though my point is doesn't there pay need to get in line with the competition as well?

It was started as his company. No he led the team that bought it from GM Now it is a public traded company, and he owns more stock than anyone else that works there. And I don't know how it is set up, but I bet that if he quits making a profit for his major shareholders they can and will fire his happy butt. Apparently not

Quote:

American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc., the Detroit auto-parts supplier embroiled in a month-long labor strike, boosted total compensation of Chief Executive Officer Richard E. Dauch by 9 percent.

Dauch�s pay package, including salary, stock and option awards and change in pension value, rose to $10.2 million from $9.3 million, the company said in a regulatory filing Monday. American Axle posted a $37-million profit last year following a net loss of $222.5 million a year earlier.

Raises for Dauch and four other top officers may add to tensions stemming from the United Auto Workers walkout. American Axle has said it needs to reduce wages and benefit costs by more than half to compete against rivals with lower costs. Factory employees say cuts shouldn�t be that severe when the supplier is profitable.

�How can you expect us to keep giving when they just keep getting more?� said Harry Jemkort, who works at an American Axle forge plant in Detroit. �It�s just throwing another log on the fire for us to say we�ll stay out here, we�re going to fight.�

In its annual proxy statement, American Axle said it gave the pay increases while continuing �to resize, restructure and recover from the rapid and unprecedented structural transformation of the highly competitive U.S. domestic automotive industry.�

About 3,650 United Auto Workers members at American Axle plants in Michigan and New York went on strike Feb. 26 over wage, health-care and pension issues. The walkout has shut or slowed production at 29 General Motors Corp. factories in North America � including the pickup assembly plant in Fort Wayne � and caused layoffs and slowdowns at suppliers that provide GM parts. GM is American Axle�s former parent.

American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc., the Detroit auto-parts supplier embroiled in a month-long labor strike, boosted total compensation of Chief Executive Officer Richard E. Dauch by 9 percent.

Dauch�s pay package, including salary, stock and option awards and change in pension value, rose to $10.2 million from $9.3 million, the company said in a regulatory filing Monday. American Axle posted a $37-million profit last year following a net loss of $222.5 million a year earlier.

Raises for Dauch and four other top officers may add to tensions stemming from the United Auto Workers walkout. American Axle has said it needs to reduce wages and benefit costs by more than half to compete against rivals with lower costs. Factory employees say cuts shouldn�t be that severe when the supplier is profitable.

�How can you expect us to keep giving when they just keep getting more?� said Harry Jemkort, who works at an American Axle forge plant in Detroit. �It�s just throwing another log on the fire for us to say we�ll stay out here, we�re going to fight.�

In its annual proxy statement, American Axle said it gave the pay increases while continuing �to resize, restructure and recover from the rapid and unprecedented structural transformation of the highly competitive U.S. domestic automotive industry.�

About 3,650 United Auto Workers members at American Axle plants in Michigan and New York went on strike Feb. 26 over wage, health-care and pension issues. The walkout has shut or slowed production at 29 General Motors Corp. factories in North America � including the pickup assembly plant in Fort Wayne � and caused layoffs and slowdowns at suppliers that provide GM parts. GM is American Axle�s former parent.

When Executive pay gets in line with the rest of the world i will agree with this statement. if American workers need to accept draconian pay cuts to compete with workers worldwide then why don't American salaried workers at these companies and execs at these companies have to make the same adjustments?
It is a profitable company only because of its global plants. The US plants are not profitable nor are they competitive.
According to various news reports, he would show the books if the Union would agree to nondisclosure.SHOW ME
A pretty simple step and a smart one if you want to keep a business running.

And its much easier and faster to make a CNC operator or programmer than it is to make an effective supervisor or CEO. Don't think you are more important that your real worth. And thats what these union employees are doing.
Are they? Is a CEO of a company that has lost 190 million in 2 years worth a 25% raise? Shared sacrifice, he cant raid teh cookie jar then point and say it's their fault!

They are not asking to adjust to "Global wages" they are asking to adjust to the same wage scale as their US competitors.
You know it's hard to make an argument that wealth in America isn't concentrating when you argue for concentrated wealth isn't it? You argue for a CEO and execs and salaried workers to receive raises and production workers to take 50% cuts...OK I am glad I don't like in your AmeriKA. Woot it isnt 1899 and I have a UNION!

7thsfsniper · 04-25-2008, 11:31 AM

[quote=glyn;488272][quote=toemag;488125]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

Glyn, you need to go shooting with myself,

A most generous offer, Tony (and not unexpected from a former member of the First of Track).

The very first parliamentary act undertaken by our present government when they took office was to ban handguns. Pistol shooting was my hobby, and I had invested time and money in getting to a reasonable standard. I shall never forgive them for making my preferred discipline ILLEGAL.

Glyn, I consider the acts of governments to ban firearms criminal at least. When I see what has happened in what is supposed to be "free" countries aroung the world I just cringe. "An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a subject", is much more than a slogan to me. There is so much at stake here and I just hate what has happened to you and your countrymen.

All Americans enjoy many freedoms but many folks have no idea what it costs. I'm proud to be among, what I feel is a minority, that believe "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hand" I mean that 100%, dead serious. Just know you are always welcome here to shoot your pistol or whatever you desire. And since it seems you don't have any, you may use mine.

For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know!

ba1025 · 04-25-2008, 11:41 AM

Gun grape what is or was your career in the private sector or were you a career Marine( if so thanks)?

Gun Grape · 04-25-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ba1025

Where did you read their competitors were paying 14.50 an hr? What is exec and salary pay at those competitors

Here is one article. I'll google more if you want. You won't find this information on union sites

American Axle says union rejected competitive offers - Crain's Detroit Business

Quote:

American Axle says union rejected competitive offers

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Advertisement
Talks between American Axle and Manufacturing Holdings Inc. and striking United Auto Workers took a turn for the worse Tuesday as the company issued a statement saying the UAW has rejected wage-and-benefit offers that are better than those paid by competitors.

The company also said if the UAW won't consider "a U.S. market-competitive labor agreement" then it will have to plan for potential closure of some or all of its original U.S. facilities.

"In order for AAM to be able to compete for new business and sustain employment at the original U.S. locations, the UAW must offer AAM economic terms and conditions that are comparable to those it has already granted to AAM’s competitors," said the statement, issued late Tuesday.

The UAW's latest proposal, made April 14, had a total wage-and-benefit cost that was nearly double the market rate at UAW-represented competitors, the statement said.

American Axle makes new offer to UAW to settle 7-week strike | WSBT South Bend - Your Local News Leader | Michigan

Quote:

American Axle has said its U.S. hourly labor cost of about $73 per worker, including fringe benefits, is three times the rate at its domestic competitors and too high for it to win new business.

American Axle, formed from parts plants sold by GM in 1994, wants to cut the labor costs to $20 to $30 an hour, which would be similar to competitors and to what will be paid to some new hires under agreements reached between the UAW and the in-house axle-making operations at Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC.

The other big players in the auto parts business, including Delphi Corp., Visteon Corp. and Dana Corp., have succeeded in rolling back the more generous wages and benefits that the UAW won during the U.S. auto industry's better days, Cole said.

"This is the last of the big union contracts," he said. "Other than American Axle, all of the suppliers have competitive packages."

Good enough?

Quote:

And he owns the biggest piece
It has nothing to do with owning a piece of the company. His pay as CEO is high because he is running a multinational corporation and is ensuring that they turn a profit. You don't just pull some Joe with a Business Degree off the street and have him do the same thing. This guy has
a ton of talent and experience. Thats what he is getting paid for. So if there costs are that much higher than their competitors now then how has he done a good job? Why isn't his CEO pay inline with his competition?

Comparing apples and oranges at the CEO level. The other companies are either US only or as the above stated in house companies that belong to Ford and Chrysler. But I would say that his compensation compared to the CEOs of Ford and Chrysler CEOs is small. So what would you pay a CEO of a corporation that has operations in 30 different companies?

Quote:

Where were they going? His was the first new company in 20 yrs in that area. And over 300 people have put in applications for those jobs if the union decides not to go back to work. Will they go work for his competitors? No, because they will be making the same level of pay that he is trying to get them to take now. Its a buyers market and nobody is buying what the union employees are trying to sell. [color="Red"]Then let him replace his workers if he can do it and turn a profit. They cant be very skilled if he wants to pay them 14.50 it should be very easy to do. Thwe Union is w/in it's right to strike ratehr than take a 50% pay cut and as long as he hasn't broken labor laws to force a strike they can replace them. Did you know they already conceded to a two tier wage system? Do you believe you raise a family on 14.50? Do you believe that is a good wage for skilled trades?

Sure they are skilled. And its more than what they would be getting working for his competition. That the same union agreed to take a pay cut at. Can you raise a family on 14.50 an hour? Many people do it every day

Quote:

Well we don't know. All we have heard is the union accusations. But, Who is easier to replace? A supervisor or a production worker? Who makes you more money?a supervisor makes a company no money they are by definition "overhead" Again though my point is doesn't there pay need to get in line with the competition as well?

a good supervisor is priceless. Just like a good NCO in the military. Supervisors make or break the company.

Quote:

When Executive pay gets in line with the rest of the world i will agree with this statement. if American workers need to accept draconian pay cuts to compete with workers worldwide then why don't American salaried workers at these companies and execs at these companies have to make the same adjustments?

It is a profitable company only because of its global plants. The US plants are not profitable nor are they competitive.

Quote:

According to various news reports, he would show the books if the Union would agree to nondisclosure.SHOW ME

Didn't save the link. But I will find it for you

Quote:

And its much easier and faster to make a CNC operator or programmer than it is to make an effective supervisor or CEO. Don't think you are more important that your real worth. And thats what these union employees are doing.
Are they? Is a CEO of a company that has lost 190 million in 2 years worth a 25% raise? Shared sacrifice, he cant raid teh cookie jar then point and say it's their fault!

Only the US plants have lost money. But they are on line with the slowdown
of the US auto industry. He could be like his competitors and drive the company into bankruptcy. Of course than the unions wouldn't have a leg to stand on. They would lose all of the pension money and health care. he is trying to keep that from happening.

Quote:

Woot it isnt 1899 and I have a UNION!

You and almost 12% and the country. Mostly janitors and federal workers.
The rest of us can negotiate our own deals without holding mommys hand.
And living in a "Right to work" state you cannot force my fellow citizen to join your unions.

Gun Grape · 04-25-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ba1025

Gun grape what is or was your career in the private sector or were you a career Marine( if so thanks)?

I'm a building contractor. Doing mostly commercial and light industrial construction. I am also a retired enlisted Marine.

glyn · 04-25-2008, 14:17 PM

[quote=7thsfsniper;488315] Just know you are always welcome here to shoot your pistol or whatever you desire. And since it seems you don't have any, you may use mine.

A handsome offer my friend, thank you.

In fact I have had a number of offers from WAB members, which proves we are a fellowship of kindred spirits.

I will be in Arizona for a week this November and my host (an old squadron chum) has a number of noisy toys for me to play with!

rj1 · 04-28-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shek

View Poll Results: Cut taxes or spending?
Cut taxes	5	11.36%
Cut spending	39	88.64%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

04-25-2008, 09:41 AM	#97 (permalink)
glyn *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-15-06 Location: Penzance, Cornwall UK Posts: 6,886	[quote=toemag;488125][quote=glyn;487590] Glyn, you need to go shooting with myself, A most generous offer, Tony (and not unexpected from a former member of the First of Track). The very first parliamentary act undertaken by our present government when they took office was to ban handguns. Pistol shooting was my hobby, and I had invested time and money in getting to a reasonable standard. I shall never forgive them for making my preferred discipline ILLEGAL. __________________ Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

04-25-2008, 11:41 AM	#100 (permalink)
ba1025 Banished Join Date: 04-04-08 Posts: 287 Country:	Gun grape what is or was your career in the private sector or were you a career Marine( if so thanks)?

04-25-2008, 14:17 PM	#103 (permalink)
glyn *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-15-06 Location: Penzance, Cornwall UK Posts: 6,886	[quote=7thsfsniper;488315] Just know you are always welcome here to shoot your pistol or whatever you desire. And since it seems you don't have any, you may use mine. A handsome offer my friend, thank you. In fact I have had a number of offers from WAB members, which proves we are a fellowship of kindred spirits. I will be in Arizona for a week this November and my host (an old squadron chum) has a number of noisy toys for me to play with!