FarSide

Sorry for the delay in my reply, as it turns out, I'm lazy.

The 14th amendment is not entirely composed of the citizenship clause, it also contains the right to Equal Protection and Due Process, among others. If you need further clarification as to why we need those clauses please state as such because I'd rather not write on length on them if you are not being serious. Here is the actual text for you to review, if you wish.


Question: You go on to say that we should not deny hospital entry to pregnant women if they cannot prove their citizenship, correct? I'd address that in more detail later on. But if they go in and give birth, would you then ask for papers? Withhold the birth certificate if they cannot produce them? Report the illegal if one of them is illegal? Not let them leave unless they can produce papers? Your asking the hospital to act like the County Clerks office.

No, it would not work.

Country of origin? You mean the United States? Because that's sure as hell my country of origin, not Norway.

To insure due process, equal protection and a clean start for all newborns, regardless of their parents mistakes. Do you have a problem with that?
So if Rosita can run enough drugs for Pablo to make a few grand, she can show up and give birth to a perfectly legal baby under your system? Whereas Marta, working two jobs as a single pregnant woman, cannot?

A separate issue, one that I would not mind addressing but not in this forum (topic).

High walls, wide doors.

People come to the United States, legal or otherwise, to forge a new life you them and their spawn. One of the most attractive prospects of the US is our tolerance and openness as a society. The one principal that has/had plagued countries with caste systems if that the children shall suffer for their fathers mistakes. That is not a principal that we embrace as it is unreasonable and foolish, a symbol of a less refined society.

donnie

LEGAL Immigrants are a national asset. I also know exactly how my ancestors became LEGAL citizens

__________________
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Whoever is filthy let him be filthy still
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gunnut

And it wasn't in the original document. No where in the original document did it say anyone born here automatically becomes a citizen. It was added to guarantee the newly freed slaves would be citizens. Together with 13 and 15, these 3 amendments are know as Reconstruction Amendments. Part of 14, the natural born citizenship clause, is now being abused by illegals, something no one though of 140 years ago. It's time to amend the 14th.

__________________
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

FibrillatorD

Thank you

An asset by definition exists in the taxable, regulatable economy. Latinos are staying one way or the other, the question is only whether they become a part of society or not. Actually, the question is how quickly they're assumed

The options:

1. Deny them legal residency and thus forgo their human equity
2. Tax the gains (make them pay a fine for citizenship/breaking the law)
3. Give them a pass, watch our portfolio grow overnight, and proceed in steady growth as America has after all immigrant-waves to America.

But besides all that, its just the right thing to do. When you give people a stake in society, they will defend it. They have dignity, and they'll prove it in a society above ground or below. Getting off on the right foot with a big group of immigrants is crucial. Giving them citizenship is the easy part. Getting over the xenophobia is the bigger hurdle IMHO

gunnut

That's ok. I get lazy too.

I'm fully aware of what 14th Amendment is. I didn't ask why anyone would want to keep or get rid of the 14th. I asked why would such person be called a screwball?

That's right. No papers, sorry, we don't have one for you either. We will not inform the police if the bill is paid in full. If you don't pay, then we will have to turn this over as a delinquent payment case. Where it goes from there, we don't care.

Hospitals are required to report gunshot wounds. Why not birth of illegals?

Parents' country of origin. Your ancestry. People are very proud of their ancestry until the question of legality comes in. Then everyone is a citizen.

I have a problem with applying the natural born citizen clause aimed to ensure the newly freed slaves their citizenships to illegal tresspassers aimed at taking advantage of our system.

What? Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I said the hospital will take care of the birth as long as the patient can pay, by whatever means, cash or insurance are ok. What the hospital will not do is issue citizenships to anyone born here, under my proposal. Their legality will be determined by the government.

Agreed.

I totally agree. Did you read any of my other posts that said we should have high walls and wide doors? Make it tough for illegals here while make it easy and rewarding to go through the process. Is that too much to ask? Is it too much to ask people to be considerate of those who also want to come in? Is it too much to ask for the illegals to observe our rules? Why is it so hard for you to understand? Do not reward law breakers.

gunnut

Why is it so hard for you people to understand that we have a process in place for those who want to come in? Why is it so hard for you to understand that those who sneak in are very inconsiderate of those who actually go through the process?

Next time when you come half way across the country to visit Disneyland, staying in line for an hour for each ride, I'll cut in front of you because I live close, see if you like it. Go ahead, call the park authority. I have a lobbying group asking them to grant me legitimacy to cut in line. Because I'm just here to enjoy a nice day with my family.

FibrillatorD

Gunnut, stop contorting this problem into analogies that don't fit.

It isn't a trespassing problem or a cutting-in-line problem. The scale of it makes for a hell of an extenuating circumstance. I haven't heard you suggest a viable solution to it either -and 12 million Latinos living underground is a problem for you too.

Black market/criminal activity? Give them a plot in society on which to build a life in the daylight. You want them to speak English? Welcome them. Want to stop subsidizing Mexicans? Recognize that they're Americans already

donnie

I’m glad you agree with me.

Why? Why not deport them, put them in the back of the line, secure the border and open up the immigration process, make it easier for those that have been waiting to get in, I’m all for easy immigration.

what? they break the law so they get the fast track?

You forgot some, like deport them to the end of the line while making it easier for those in the front to get in, you can grant legal immigration status on par with those deported. After you secure the border of course.

What? Reward criminals?

I don’t see how stealing citizenship garners dignity

Are you calling me xenophobic? Seriously? The fact is generation after generation came here legally, the fact that there is a very large influx of illegal immigrants makes it difficult to justify letting in more legal immigrants, so the ones abiding by the laws are suffering for those who are not.

donnie

how does it work for every country in the European Union? Are you saying thier smarter, and can figure ou how to do it, and the US cant? bah!

TheGreenSmoke

United States vs Wong Kim Ark gauranteed citizenship to anyone born on US soil regardless of the parents' citizenship status. Some people want their kids to be born Americans so they can have a better life than they did. Now why would you want to take that away from them?

FibrillatorD

your plan assumes people are complete tools. (See African immigration)

You haven't seriously considered what deportation would entail.

You can call them criminals, and feed a rift between Latinos and Americans, while they continue to stay, and eventually become part of society anyway.

Or you can jump to stage six because there is a cheat code we learned from our immigration history

gunnut

How does that not fit? Why don't you give me an analogy that fits.

It isn't? Why not? We have hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people all over the world who want to come here. They applied and waited and shelled out the money, jumped the hoops, so they can gain legal entrance. Then there are those who just hopped the fence, pop some babies, bam, American citizen. Do you know who gets preferential treatment when applying for citizenship? That's right, those who are related to an American citizen. Meanwhile there are those people who must spend years on the waiting list to get a visa to work here, and then bring their families here. But wait, that's not all. They must then get their permanant residency. After 5 years of spotless record as a permanant resident, could they hope to become citizens.

Not cut in line? You have no idea.

Right, make it tough and hard to be an illegal. But make it easy to go through the process so they feel like they are part of the system. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF? Do you have a selective reading comprehension problem?

What do you prize more? Something freely handed to you or something you worked and earned? Why should we freely handout our citizenships to people who don't even care much this country? Many people come here to work and then go home. If they never had the intention of joining this nation, why should we make their kids one of us?

I love this country. I am more American than most native born Americans. I treasure my citizenship. I want to be buried here after I die because this is my home. I don't want to be anywhere else on this earth. Why is it that I had to work so hard, waited for years on the list before I could even set foot in this country, hope and pray that the interview with the INS went well and we could be granted permanant residency, make sure I have 5 years of spotless record, before I could earn my citizenship? Why is it that some people just hop the fence, give birth to kids, and then granted a pathway to citizenship when some of them don't even care about it?


Note: I do not support mass deportation. My solution is to make it easy and worthwhile for illegals to leave and re-enter legally.

gunnut

So what? The supreme court has never reversed itself before? Dred Scott decision of 1854 was reversed if I remember correctly. That had to do with a slave. The 14th amendment was for the benefits of the newly freed slaves. Natural born citizenship clause should be repealed.

donnie

How to you know what I have seriously considered?

First off deportation is not the first step to mass deportation, as a matter of fact there would be no "mass" deportation in my plan. My plan is a comprehensive immigration package not just ala cart.

Phase one, this has 2 parts that coincide, part one you secure the border, there are many plans out there I don’t know if I have seen the right one yet, but that is the first hurdle. You also need to reform the Justice department, you need to consolidate the INS, EOIR, and BIA, and expand and broaden its base. You need to change the appointment procedure for the Board of Immigration Appeals (BIA) to make it less political, I hate just saying this because there are so many details that would be involved, like making the BIA an elected position w/ possibly reps. in each state, ect, ect. You need to add automatic deportation flags that cannot be appealed, like being convicted of, or pleading guilty to a crime. Once you have secured the border and reformed the deportation procedures then you move to phase 2. Of course there are many more details but you get the premise.

Phase two, also has 2 parts that coincide, simply enforce laws that are already on the books, and increase fines for companies that hire illegals, make it hurt. This money of course would help fund the deportation process. At the same time we need to stream line the immigration process "the high fence, wide door" thing you keep hearing about. Seriously, with that many people leaving the country, mostly under their own power, and mind you they will leave, especially when they see how hard it is to live as an illegal, and how easy it is to become a citizen, you can start opening the flood gates to legitimate immigrants.

If you do all of these, and other things of course, immigrants will leave on their own, and if you make the process easy enough they will apply for citizenship, and they will complete the required procedures to become a citizen.

The fact that LEGAL immigrants have done everything required of them, see site,

How to become a U.S. citizen

and illegal immigrants want a free pass without the requirements above, this does not solidify my faith in their loyalty.

I have actually thought about much more then what I have put down, like offering government bond backed loans to immigrants who cant afford the immigrating process, or vastly expanding the work visa program, offering incentives to companies that sponsor legal migrant workers and expand the H1b for manual labor, drop or increase the H1 visa limits (which you could do if all the illegals were out), expanding 328 of the INA, to include things like automatic citizenship for spouses and children who would otherwise qualify of KIA's, and indefinite extensions on visas for the families of MIA's, also to expand it to include the other parent of a KIA's child even if not married, make it easier for families of those who serve the US, assuming they otherwise qualify to become citizens. But I’m sure that none of this really maters to you, because in your mind I’m just some xenophobe you can dismiss by saying “you haven’t seriously considered it”.

donnie

Wouldn’t be the first time the Supreme Court made a bad decision. The courts only interpret the constitution, as judges change opinions change.

I don’t, I want them to do it the right way, show their loyalty to the United States of America. Swear their allegiance, learn the language, and have a fundamental knowledge of the US and it's history. All the things that were required of our ancestors when they arrived here, why is that so much to ask?