Romney wins Michigan - Page 5

dalem · 01-17-2008, 20:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Dale, how can you be convinced that Romney's very recent "changes of view" are even real?

Look, I've already said that none of my choices this year excite me all that much. I think the majority of pols are filthy liars because politics is a business about filthy lying. That said, Romney has executive experience, a presidential mien, and claims he is a conservative now. That's good enough for me.

-dale

dalem · 01-17-2008, 20:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Campaigning is marketing.

Politics ain't. It's scratching my back so I'll scratch yours all to get what you and I want with respect to the governance of the people. Clearly, that is not campaigning for office where there is only one winner.

Haven't watched BSG. I'll check it out to see if that's a good reason to switch from McCain. Rush is blasting McCain non-stop. You haven't by chance been listening to him, have you?

Nope. I don't listen to Rush. I got suspicious of McCain when he worked with the Dems to ruin campaign financing and limit free political speech. I got VERY suspicious of McCain back in 2004 when he was being coy about running as a Democrat.

I hate hate hate hate turncoats.

I became frustrated with McCain when he wrecked the Republican Majority's authority on actually running the Senate with his Gang of Fourteen. We ended up with a complete bendover to the Dems on their unConstitutional holdup of judicial appointments.

I grew disgusted with McCain, not with his concept of immigration reform, which I actually thought was pretty decent, but with his attempt to jam it through without any tolerance of debate or discussion when he knew the electorate wanted time to air it out, and with his dismissive attitude to that same electorate.

Now that I've heard his embrace of Lefty enviro-weenieism and the like, I have nothing but contempt for him. I cannot wait to see him disappear from politics, or at least to be honest and switch parties. Hearing his voice raises my blood pressure.

In short, he enjoys pissing on conservatives and Republicans. As a conservative siding with the Republicans, I enjoy pissing on him in turn.

-dale

FibrillatorD · 01-17-2008, 21:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

I became frustrated with McCain when he wrecked the Republican Majority's authority on actually running the Senate with his Gang of Fourteen. We ended up with a complete bendover to the Dems on their unConstitutional holdup of judicial appointments.

Another instance when McCain took the longview and took a political hit. Another reason he's the most respectable R in the running.

It was an institutional maneuver - not a partisan one. There is nothing in the Constitution that says the Senate must give an up or down vote to Presidential appointments. That's not what's intended by 'advice and consent.' The Senate, in fact, makes its own rules about what exactly advice and consent means.

I suspect McCain would fight just as tough for the prerogatives of the Presidency as he did for those of the Senate, if he ever switched teams.

So much heat from talk-radio. As if Republicans haven't been just as prissy when a Demned is the president and they're the minority party

dalem · 01-17-2008, 22:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FibrillatorD

Another instance when McCain took the longview and took a political hit. Another reason he's the most respectable R in the running.

It was an institutional maneuver - not a partisan one. There is nothing in the Constitution that says the Senate must give an up or down vote to Presidential appointments. That's not what's intended by 'advice and consent.' The Senate, in fact, makes its own rules about what exactly advice and consent means.

I suspect McCain would fight just as tough for the prerogatives of the Presidency as he did for those of the Senate, if he ever switched teams.

So much heat from talk-radio. As if Republicans haven't been just as prissy when a Demned is the president and they're the minority party

So if you're saying that McCain f*cked his party over at a critical time, you're right. If you think that "respectable" is the equivalent of "kicks his own team in the nuts whenever he can", then yeah, he's superrespectable.

-dale

**Ironduke** · 01-17-2008, 23:29 PM

Quote:

I became frustrated with McCain when he wrecked the Republican Majority's authority on actually running the Senate with his Gang of Fourteen. We ended up with a complete bendover to the Dems on their unConstitutional holdup of judicial appointments.

To what? Oppose the use of the filibuster and the nuclear option? There were 55 Republicans and 45 Democrats in the Senate at the time, it took 41 senators to sustain a filibuster and 60 senators to bring it to an end. It clearly seemed like a very pragmatic solution.

Who the hell are we to demand that McCain tow a party line? His duty is to represent the interests of the people of Arizona and the United States, not just the Republican party. Political parties are umbrella organizations that represent a wide variety of viewpoints and interests, they're not some monolithic entity whose leadership must be obeyed like Joe Stalin.

I had a professor once who the Republicans wanted to run as a Congressman. He was a prominent lawyer, prosecutor, and judge. He said he wasn't against abortion, they said "screw you." Well screw them.

Dale, you may as well face the truth, McCain is the most popular Republican in the United States.

And for everybody who backs Thompson... people close to Thompson say he is going to end up endorsing McCain if he doesn't win South Carolina, just like in 1999.

FibrillatorD · 01-17-2008, 23:41 PM

I visited Iowa on 01/01 and watched Barack speak at Roosevelt H.S. in Des Moines. I don't know if the chants were started by staffers

Quote:

Romney 4.0—do we have a winner?
By John Dickerson
Posted Thursday, Jan. 17, 2008, at 4:29 PM ET

I don't know whether I watched Romney 4.0 or Romney 1.0 at the University of South Carolina Wednesday night. He was standing in front of a big sign that said "Washington Is Broken," which is a new addition to his road show. Also newish is his almost total emphasis on using his business skills to fix the federal government. At the same time, this pitch is also not that different from the one he was running on a year ago, before he started giving synthetic presentations that felt more like he was reading a Conservative Union Mad Lib.

The new heavy emphasis looks like it's working. It helped Romney take Michigan, and on the stump it's animating audiences. This approach allows Romney to tell stories about his successful days as a management consultant and running the Olympics, which he clearly loves telling. He looks like he believes what he's saying, and the audience responds more robustly than at any Romney event I've been to before. Every time he talks about the failures of Washington, they cheer more loudly. This kind of reaction seemed like a near impossibility before Romney got here yesterday. He was about a half-hour late, and staffers tried to get several chants going only to have them die out almost immediately. They kept trying—"Let's Go, Mitt!"—but the span of time between the start of the cheer and its end kept getting shorter.

The Mr. Fix-It strategy has the chance of working for Romney politically for three reasons. He's giving his best riff as the economy becomes ever-more important to voters. He sounds authentic doing it, which addresses one of his campaign's biggest problems. And finally, since the primary race is now going national—as candidates head to the 21 states up for grabs on Feb. 5— Romney is going after voters who haven't been following the race as closely as those who live in the states that voted early. The Super Tuesday audience is less likely to see his new message as the latest in a series of zigzags than as Romney's main pitch.

That's not to say the pitch is not without its problems, for those who want to pick at it. First, it's a little head-snapping to hear Romney talk with passion and at length about fighting Washington special interests and doling out middle-class tax cuts. Politicians "didn't stand up for us. They haven't done that job," he says. Why? Because of "lobbyists, the people who are hanging around … the special interests." If you closed your eyes and channeled an emotional Southern accent, you could very well think you were hearing John Edwards. (Also, er, wasn't his dad a lobbyist?)

The list of Washington failures works very well as political theater. Romney names a problem Washington hasn't fixed, and the audience chants back "they haven't done it" or some variation thereof. But when you listen to the list—fix the border, fix Social Security, lower the tax burden on the middle class, and fix the education system—you realize that Romney has just listed the Bush agenda. There are the items that passed (tax cuts and No Child Left Behind) and the huge gambits that failed (immigration reform and Social Security private accounts). Romney has been walloping Mike Huckabee for attacking Bush, but his current attack on Washington is also, in part, an attack on the Bush record. Romney says he's not singling out the president or the Democrats in Washington when he makes his attacks, but that makes no sense because you cannot attack a city. The politicians are the ones who have failed.

Finally, we come to Romney's talk about protecting every job. This line worked for him in Michigan, with its highest-in-the-country unemployment rate. McCain told voters some of their jobs weren't coming back and lost; now he's taking that candid but unappealing message to South Carolina in telling voters that some of the state's textile jobs aren't coming back, either. People should look to the job sectors that are growing, says McCain. True, but not so comforting.

To support his job-protection pledge, Romney tells a story from his business years about an early investment he made in Staples. It's a story about the glory of American innovation and how smart Romney was to spot an idea that could grow into a national big-box store. The small problem, though, is that the story directly conflicts with his current role as American job protector. Staples was a great concept that created jobs and probably made it easier for lots of people to buy office supplies—even if you discount for (in my experience and opinion) the company's horrible customer service. But small office-supply businesses disappeared as Staples grew. Those jobs aren't coming back, nor is the personal attention that those stores offered. The thousands of workers at now-defunct CompUSA who lost their jobs because people started buying computers at Staples also aren't going to get their jobs back. This is the tough reality of American innovation. But Romney doesn't want to celebrate or even admit to that, a la McCain (whom he never mentioned by name in Columbia). Instead Romney denies the reality of churning job loss altogether.

The good news for Romney is that voters probably aren't going to call him on any of these inconsistencies. Any rivals who want to challenge him on the dynamism of the American job market risks getting into a spat with him on his strongest turf. It would be like debating theology with Mike Huckabee. Which is why of all the messages Romney has tried out, this is the one he's likely to keep preaching.

JAD_333 · 01-18-2008, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Now that I've heard his embrace of Lefty enviro-weenieism and the like, I have nothing but contempt for him. I cannot wait to see him disappear from politics, or at least to be honest and switch parties. Hearing his voice raises my blood pressure.

In short, he enjoys pissing on conservatives and Republicans. As a conservative siding with the Republicans, I enjoy pissing on him in turn.

-dale

After carefully analysing your post, I've concluded that you don't like McCain.

Another way to look at his working with the other side on key issues is as a person who cares more about fixing things than how he is perceived among the party faithful. I like that because politics today has become opposition for opposition's sake. At least he's trying to do get something done. The others just talk about it.

A turncoat he is not. In fact he votes with senate Republicans more often than the average of all Republican senators--84 pct vs 81 pct.

dalem · 01-18-2008, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

To what? Oppose the use of the filibuster and the nuclear option? There were 55 Republicans and 45 Democrats in the Senate at the time, it took 41 senators to sustain a filibuster and 60 senators to bring it to an end. It clearly seemed like a very pragmatic solution.

Who the hell are we to demand that McCain tow a party line? His duty is to represent the interests of the people of Arizona and the United States, not just the Republican party. Political parties are umbrella organizations that represent a wide variety of viewpoints and interests, they're not some monolithic entity whose leadership must be obeyed like Joe Stalin.

I had a professor once who the Republicans wanted to run as a Congressman. He was a prominent lawyer, prosecutor, and judge. He said he wasn't against abortion, they said "screw you." Well screw them.

Dale, you may as well face the truth, McCain is the most popular Republican in the United States.

And for everybody who backs Thompson... people close to Thompson say he is going to end up endorsing McCain if he doesn't win South Carolina, just like in 1999.

What conservative ideal or Republican party line has McCain even glanced at, let alone towed, over the last ten years?

I can think of roughly one and a half. Not enough for me. And again, it's his attitude in addition to his stands.

-dale

dalem · 01-18-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

After carefully analysing your post, I've concluded that you don't like McCain.

Another way to look at his working with the other side on key issues is as a person who cares more about fixing things than how he is perceived among the party faithful. I like that because politics today has become opposition for opposition's sake. At least he's trying to do get something done. The others just talk about it.

A turncoat he is not. In fact he votes with senate Republicans more often than the average of all Republican senators--84 pct vs 81 pct.

Hey, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just listing the reasons for my opinion. They are factual. If you like him, great, you support him.

-dale

**Ironduke** · 01-18-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

What conservative ideal or Republican party line has McCain even glanced at, let alone towed, over the last ten years?

I think JAD answered that well enough... same phrase, substitute Romney. Which conservative ideal has Romney even glanced at? He's a liberal. He gets elected (which he won't), he just reverts to what he really believes.

JAD_333 · 01-18-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Hey, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just listing the reasons for my opinion. They are factual. If you like him, great, you support him.

-dale

Well, hell, I didn't think you were trying to do anything other than state your POV, which is what makes this place interesting. I was doing the same.

I like McCain so-so. Main reasons: he's a doer and, almost as important, he's endured physical trials few people ever experience, which means he understands the fragility of life. I don't mind that he's a little long in the tooth and has bit of a beer belly. Being Romney-pretty may win elections, but it won't solve any problems. I just can't back a guy who backs out of his core positions on issues just so he can get my vote for president. But, I am not trying to convince you either. Like someone I know said: If you like him, you support him.

dalem · 01-18-2008, 14:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

I think JAD answered that well enough... same phrase, substitute Romney. Which conservative ideal has Romney even glanced at? He's a liberal. He gets elected (which he won't), he just reverts to what he really believes.

As I've said, Romney doesn't have a string of "f*ck you"s to conservatism trailing behind him. He may not have a string of conservative victories either, that's true. Whereas you consider him a liberal, I consider him a mild conservative with great potential. So it's not so much that I am convinced I know what Romney would do as Prez, it's that I am convinced I know what McCain would do.

-dale

dalem · 01-18-2008, 14:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Well, hell, I didn't think you were trying to do anything other than state your POV, which is what makes this place interesting. I was doing the same.

I like McCain so-so. Main reasons: he's a doer and, almost as important, he's endured physical trials few people ever experience, which means he understands the fragility of life. I don't mind that he's a little long in the tooth and has bit of a beer belly. Being Romney-pretty may win elections, but it won't solve any problems. I just can't back a guy who backs out of his core positions on issues just so he can get my vote for president. But, I am not trying to convince you either. Like someone I know said: If you like him, you support him.

-dale

gunnut · 01-18-2008, 19:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Oh yeah, I hate it too, mostly for the same reasons, but I did like the 2 hr premier movie so I have the DVD.

Buncha pissy weenies. I'd hope the Cylons get 'em all, except the obvious gimmick is going to be that they're all Cylons.

-dale

The first half season of the new BSG was awesome. Then it went downhill.

I love a tale of a handful of survivors running away to search for a way to rebuild humanization. There's comeraderie and teamwork and the "we're all in this together" spirit. Instead all these people are just trying to backstab each other to get their hands on some pitily power to rule over 3 dozen people.

I hope the cylons kill them all. But I agree with you, I think they're all cyclons.

Ishapore41 · 01-18-2008, 19:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Look, I've already said that none of my choices this year excite me all that much. I think the majority of pols are filthy liars because politics is a business about filthy lying. That said, Romney has executive experience, a presidential mien, and claims he is a conservative now. That's good enough for me.

-dale

LOL.

Sorry I found that funny.

Romney is a politician in all respects. He looks at polls and tells people what he thinks the polls are reflecting. The polls now say people want change and a Washington outsider and look what he is doing, saying "change" and labeling himself a Washington outsider.

He didn't talk like this last month, or in December, or November, or October, or September, or August...

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