Was Obama a Muslim? - Page 2

Silent Hunter · 12-31-2007, 14:05 PM

Indeed, Ironduke.

Whether or not Obama was or is a Muslim is almost completely irrelevant. If he did convert to Christianity from Islam, then that's no reason for Christians not to vote for him.

WhamBam · 12-31-2007, 14:09 PM

Christians can't vote for a Muslim?

Silent Hunter · 12-31-2007, 14:19 PM

No, that's not what I'm saying. However, if you're going to vote for someone because they're a Christian, then the fact that they were Muslim in the past should be irrelevant.

WhamBam · 12-31-2007, 14:23 PM

I understand that. However I doubt that a person who makes the first distinction won't make the second. At least some of them.

Silent Hunter · 12-31-2007, 16:26 PM

Yeah, that's true.

Khan_Han · 12-31-2007, 23:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

The definition of Islamist is not Muslim, Islamism is a term used to describe a generally anti-Western political ideology that holds that Islam should be the basis of government, which advocates sharia law and pan-Islamic political unity. More generally, the term is used to refer to the more extreme among these.

I draw your attention to the Princeton University Online Dictionary (Link attached below).

WordNet Search - 3.0

An Islamist is defined as follows:
S: (n) Islamist (a scholar who knowledgeable in Islamic studies)
S: (n) Islamist (an orthodox Muslim)

It is only Post-September 11 that the term has been used by politicians to denote the ideology you describe above. This again shows that all Muslims are now being equated with terrorism. It is manifest that deep down every non-muslim member of civilisation is now scared of muslims...thanks to all the negative media hype. In fact, I don't blame them...If I heard all that on the media I would be frightend too. I would even go further and dissociate myself from every muslim person I knew. Everyone now believes that a muslim is the person who wears the headscarf, oppresses women and bombs him/herself up in the name of Allah. Little do they know is that not every muslim wears a headscarf. And even little do they know is that there is in fact positive discrimination in Islam for women. They also don't have any clue about who Allah is. Allah is the Arabic word for God. The same God all monotheistic religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam worships. So whats the big deal? Could it be self-interest? Could it be politics? I don't know!

**Ironduke** · 01-02-2008, 04:00 AM

Quote:

I draw your attention to the Princeton University Online Dictionary (Link attached below).

Doesn't surprise me, definitions from academic circles tend to be more politically correct.

A simple Google search reveals the mainstream definition of the term:

islamist - Google Search
islamism - Google Search

Ray · 01-02-2008, 04:14 AM

If he was a Moslem and now a Christian, then he better double his security detail.

Islam does not allow anyone to forsake the Faith!

Khan_Han · 01-02-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Doesn't surprise me, definitions from academic circles tend to be more politically correct.

A simple Google search reveals the mainstream definition of the term:

islamist - Google Search
islamism - Google Search

I'd prefer the Princeton University definition...Google is not a University, nor does it have the capacity to research the etymology of the word "Islamist".

Furthermore, after doing a google definition search myself I got the following results (at define:islamist - Google Search):

Quote:

Definitions of islamist on the Web:

is a term used to identify a Muslim fundamentalist.
frontline: teacher center: teachers guide: in search of al qaeda: glossary and identifications | PBS

A person or an organization using Islamic religious precepts to form a political ideology.
CareerJournal | Style & Substance Glossary

a scholar who knowledgeable in Islamic studies
an orthodox Muslim
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Islamism is a term used to denote a set of political ideologies holding that Islam is not solely a religion, but also a political system where Islamic law is the basis for all statutory laws of society, and that Muslims must return to the original teachings and the early models of Islam. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist

Islamist is a term often used to refer to Muslims who are fundamentalist in their theology and willing to consider political organizing and/or violent action to bring about a world consistent with that theology. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist (term)

Now, I draw your attention to the sources of those google definitions.
Wikipaedia: Their definitions are always apt to mislead, afterall they are written by you and me.
PPS: I don't need to go no further. It is the same media company running the anti-islamic hype.
Career Journal Europe: Again another media company, also happens to be a subsidiary of "The Wall Street Journal".
Princeton University Dictionary: A definition from an academic institution which actually has researched the etymology of the word.

Which definition do you believe is the most reliable, objective and unbiased?

My suggestion is don't jump into believing everything that is said. Prima facie, they may look reliable, but a close inspection may reveal that such definition may be apt to mislead.

Dwarven Pirate · 01-02-2008, 15:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Why is talk of terrorism being brought into the thread? Nobody here ever alleged that Barack Obama was a militant Islamic fundamentalist, nor his father. Nobody here said he attended a Wahabbi madrassah. I wasn't even aware myself of these allegations until that Snopes article was posted. If I did see them I would have sifted them out paying no mind to them.

Talk of terrorism should be left out of this thread, if you want to discuss it, discuss it elsewhere.

The fact remains, religion is salient in American politics. Whether its Mitt Romney's Mormonism, Barack Obama's possible practice of Islam as a youngster, Giuliani's support of policies that goes against Catholic doctrine, or Mike Huckabee reminding people on TV that Christmas is a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus, religion matters to voters.

Yes, there were articles published concerning his religion, mainly questioning his orthodoxy, but also the possible effect on US-Arab relations if a Jewish vice-president were elected and how his support of the Iraq War would alienate Jewish Democrats. Every time he has been in the media spotlight, there have been a plethora of articles about him and his religion, ditto for the rest of them. I'm sorry if you were unaware of this fact.

The article you posted is about muslim terrorism.

Quote:

might Muslims consider him a murtadd (apostate), that is, a Muslim who converted to another religion and, therefore, someone whose blood may be shed?

Quote:

What is Obama's true connection to Islam and what implications might this have for an Obama presidency?

Quote:

Obama's conversion to another faith, in short, makes him a murtadd.

That said, the punishment for childhood apostasy is less severe than for the adult version. <<<But "punished" nonetheless.>>>

Quote:

One must assume that some Islamists would renounce him as a murtadd and would try to execute him.

Quote:

More significantly, how would more mainstream Muslims respond to him, would they be angry at what they would consider his apostasy? That reaction is a real possibility, one that could undermine his initiatives toward the Muslim world.

Kansas Bear · 01-02-2008, 15:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwarven Pirate

The article you posted is about muslim terrorism.

Quote:

might Muslims consider him a murtadd (apostate), that is, a Muslim who converted to another religion and, therefore, someone whose blood may be shed?

Dwarven Pirate, are you calling Islamic dogma 'terrorism'???

**Ironduke** · 01-02-2008, 17:18 PM

Quote:

I'd prefer the Princeton University definition

It doesn't matter what you prefer. That definition is wrong.

**Ironduke** · 01-02-2008, 17:20 PM

Quote:

The article you posted is about muslim terrorism.

Give me a quote where Obama is called a terrorist.

Khan_Han · 01-02-2008, 20:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Give me a quote where Obama is called a terrorist.

There are no express claims but it is manifestly implied in a sarcastic tone.

12-31-2007, 14:09 PM	#17 (permalink)
WhamBam Contributor Join Date: 02-27-07 Location: India Posts: 655 Country:	Christians can't vote for a Muslim? __________________ There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..

01-02-2008, 04:14 AM	#23 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,239 Country:	If he was a Moslem and now a Christian, then he better double his security detail. Islam does not allow anyone to forsake the Faith! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

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12-31-2007, 14:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
Silent Hunter Contributor Join Date: 08-09-07 Location: London, UK Posts: 596 Country:	Indeed, Ironduke. Whether or not Obama was or is a Muslim is almost completely irrelevant. If he did convert to Christianity from Islam, then that's no reason for Christians not to vote for him.

12-31-2007, 14:19 PM	#18 (permalink)
Silent Hunter Contributor Join Date: 08-09-07 Location: London, UK Posts: 596 Country:	No, that's not what I'm saying. However, if you're going to vote for someone because they're a Christian, then the fact that they were Muslim in the past should be irrelevant.

12-31-2007, 14:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
WhamBam Contributor Join Date: 02-27-07 Location: India Posts: 655 Country:	I understand that. However I doubt that a person who makes the first distinction won't make the second. At least some of them.

12-31-2007, 16:26 PM	#20 (permalink)
Silent Hunter Contributor Join Date: 08-09-07 Location: London, UK Posts: 596 Country:	Yeah, that's true.

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