astralis

steven lloyd,

as many of the members of this board well know, i'm not exactly a bigot when it comes to this whole islam/muslim issue.

however, what we see within the islamic world is a relatively large minority population- as compared with other religions- willing to engage in terrorist/radical behavior; this belongs to an even larger (although obviously still minority) population which condones such behavior, while not necessarily carrying it out themselves.

then, finally, both these groups belong to a still larger subset whose interpreted values differ dramatically from those of the enlightenment/nationalist values which we in the west hold to be the basis of the modern state. taking the final subset into account (which includes the former groups), we reach a pretty formidable percentage of the muslim population, indeed. that is why islam- or to be more specific and fair, islamic interpretations, needs changing.

of course, this is in conjunction with a whole plethora of other issues, such as joblessness, lack of political freedom, lack of education, the collapse of nationalist values- but that does not take away from the fact that islam has a bad rap, and it is definitely not wholly unjustified.

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Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Confed999

"I've been struck by how hungry we all are for a different kind of politics,” said Obama

I think he just told us to eat him.

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No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

steven lloyd

I’m sorry - I guess I wasn’t being clear enough. I’m not suggesting that tolerance, acceptance and inclusiveness are preconditions for evolution, but rather, the eventual outcome of global social evolution presuming civilization survives the next hundred years. Actually, I suppose they would be preconditions if we want to consider evolvution to be a postive event. I mean, we will evolve one way or another, but are you suggesting you would like to see human society become even more intolerant, divided and marginalized? Again, I would suggest that if we don't start to collectively develop the attitudes of tolerance, acceptance and inclusiveness, the remaining time of our civilization on this planet will be short-lived.

steven lloyd

Astralis - I appreciate your more well thought out analysis of this issue. Including your acknowledgement of a whole plethora of other issues, such as joblessness, lack of political freedom, lack of education, and the collapse of nationalist values. I would also definitely agree that one major problem is the interpretation of Islam by extremists, but again point out the same thing exists within Christianity. Ostracizing the entire Muslim population is not going to lead to any solutions here, but only lead to further division and animosity. This is going to make things far worse before they ever become better. The United States cannot continue to isolate itself further from the rest of the world. This is creating a very dangerous situation, as has already been demonstrated, and there is no guaranteed way to defend yourselves from every possible type of attack. I’m suggesting that as a race of global citizens, we need to start collectively changing our attitude and strategy because everyone on the planet will ultimately be affected.

GVChamp

However, I don't want that evolution to be negative. I want change, too; I want a government that has a more effecient tax structure with less social spending and an aggresive foreign policy stance.
Obama is a Democrat. That's a strike. He's also had a life experience that's been far different from mine. He's still a great man, and I don't plan on calling out the mob, but forgive me if I am a bit suspicious.

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"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

dalem

No, it shows that I have paid attention to the thousands of acts of murder and mayhem committed by Muslims over the past couple of decades, a great number of which are committed in the name of Allah. So it actually shows me existing in a state of well-informed knowledge.

Prove that. And so what? The message coming from guys who wear pointy white hoods and who burn crosses is "we don't like black people". There may be a large group of pointy white hood-wearers who, in fact, think black people are the cat's pajamas, but I've never heard from them. Likewise, there are over a billion Muslims on this planet, and the preponderance of messages I'm hearing are that Islam is a label for "I'm a tenth century whiney nutbag". As I've said before, I'd notice a billion voices telling me that that's not true. So far it's been more like four.

No, the sad thing is that you consider the above sentence to be a valid butress of your position. The value of pi to the 5th decimal is something that "could, and really should be easily known", but very few people know it because no one is sawing off the heads of living people, burning embassies, or crashing planes full of people into buildings full of people screaming "3.14159!"

No it's not. Acts of violence and ignorance perpetrated in the name of Xnty are immediately and widely repudiated by the vast majority of Church, church, and lay spokesman who are asked. There are almost no such acts that are sanctioned or organized by those same xn authorities. The same can NOT be said about the killings and other vile acts committed by Muslims all across the planet on a daily basis.

I believe that it doesn't HAVE to be that way. I believe that those four voices I'm hearing today could be eight tomorrow, 16 the next day, etc., and there could quickly come a day when the so-called "Moderate Muslim" gets tired of being disrespected by the likes of me and simply boots the murderous mouthpieces and wannabe jihadists out of their mosques and say "No more!"

But I believe it less with every day that goes by without it happening.

-dale

Confed999

Major difference: By and large Christians will arrest the perp, drag 'em into court, and send them to prison...

Confed999

Same... Same...

dalem

I would like all societies to become less tolerant of oppression and evil. We'll never be the Federation, but why we still tolerate human crap sacks like Mugabe just baffles me.

-dale

Confed999

Amen...

steven lloyd

Or just as likely, by continuing to alienate more and more Muslims (and other people around the world), you feed the movement and one day find you’ve accomplished nothing other than further alienating yourself from the rest of the planet. Oops. Sorry. That’s already happening isn’t it?

Confed999

The other choice is to sit idle for another couple decades hoping they will take care of their own. Something they have not been doing, and show no signs of doing...

steven lloyd

If our civilization still exists 1000 years from now we will be. Either that or we'll be living in caves again. It starts today with the people here. Which direction do you want to go?

Time out now. Time to go watch the NFC and AFC playoffs. I love your NFL.

Confed999

Only if we turn against the tyrants, terrorists and criminals in general. Something you are not prepared to do. Though I guess you're right, but it would be a federation of tyranny.

steven lloyd

I absolutely agree with your first statement, making your second statement quite the presumption (but true to demanstrated character so far). It might come as a suprise to you that outside of the United States, George Bush and current American foriegn policy is overwhelmingly seen as the greatest threat to global peace.