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Old 02-16-2007, 11:01 AM   #241 (permalink)
sirpuddingfoot
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Originally Posted by dalem View Post
You clearly suffer from ABS, but there is hope that we may save you from BDS.
Certainly. But when over half of the country is "sorry" they elected him, yet he continues to ignore the pleas of congress to work with them rather than against them.
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And tried for treason.
Well, the area is grey, but as another digression, I'd rather not end up trying to explain that yet more things aren't quite as simple as many think them to be.

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So it wasn't legitimate, except that it was, before we had to go in and discover the facts and determine that our original concerns were (luckily) not borne out, and now that we know that it goes back in time and erases the legitimacy that it had?

Is that your premise? Because that's what I get out of your paragraph.
No. Read it again. Part of debating is being gracious to your opponent (meaning that we look beyond the words to the meaning behind them).

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We resumed a status of war with Iraq because Saddam refused to abide by the conditions of his Surrender agreement and because we had legitimate reasons to suspect that he still maintained active stockpiles of WMD.

Read the resolution. Shek has a post here somewhere with the exact resolution, if he's feeling generous maybe he'll post it again.

So your concept of legitimacy is flawed and has no place in a logical argument.
Right, except that that isn't it. I've read the resolution enough, and I think the resolution was wrongly passed, or wasn't passed with enough qualifications.
In any case, here it is:
Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
or http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ243.107



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So you can make your opinion known via your vote, but it doesn;t give you any extra pull with your elected executive.
You've given reason enough for major changes to campaign financing. Candidates shouldn't be marketed.

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He's shifted techniques a few times, weren't you paying attention?
Perhaps the word "shift" was the wrong word, I'll replace it with "make significant adjustments". Pish posh, you bandy words

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Fine. Are they doing that? I don't think so. And the nutty Jihadis are still preaching from inside their mosques. So now that the talk hasn't happened or has failed, kick 'em out, keep 'em out. How is that militant? Stand in front of the door, do it in shifts. Simple as pie.
They are, you're just not looking in the right places or listening well enough. I've posted a couple links before, and I'll not do so again (as if people click on them anyway). Again, as I've said before, impatience is no cause for war. Of course, you are entitled to wish they were doing more. Even I wish they were doing more now that it is becoming apparent that some of the sectarian contention is coming our way. I'm not a fan of fundamentalist Islam for the same reasons I'm not a fan of fundamentalist Christianity or any other "fundamentalized" world religion. They're based on dogmatic adherence to myth, usually poorly understood to begin with. Fundamentalists of all kinds should be dealt with (and I don't mean violently).

Last edited by sirpuddingfoot : 02-16-2007 at 12:11 PM. Reason: made aware of a potential misunderstanding in the last paragraph
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Old 02-16-2007, 14:23 PM   #242 (permalink)
dalem
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Originally Posted by sirpuddingfoot View Post
Certainly. But when over half of the country is "sorry" they elected him, yet he continues to ignore the pleas of congress to work with them rather than against them.
... then what? And Congress has no responsibility regarding war except for controlling the money. They have no qualification or input in strategy.

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No. Read it again. Part of debating is being gracious to your opponent (meaning that we look beyond the words to the meaning behind them).
I did read it a few times. I still get a message of "reverse-illegitimacy" from your words, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm just being thick-headed.

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Right, except that that isn't it. I've read the resolution enough, and I think the resolution was wrongly passed, or wasn't passed with enough qualifications.
In any case, here it is:
Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
or http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ243.107
Ahh, well you may believe it was wrong but that doesn't make it "illegitimate".

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Perhaps the word "shift" was the wrong word, I'll replace it with "make significant adjustments". Pish posh, you bandy words
Hardly bandying - I just like to see real criticisms, not fake ones. I know too many people who are interested in debating or discussing things that simply never happened, or are not factual. Because there are real problems and situations that need to be discussed I don't support wasting a single second talking about the fake ones.

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They are, you're just not looking in the right places or listening well enough. I've posted a couple links before, and I'll not do so again (as if people click on them anyway). Again, as I've said before, impatience is no cause for war. Of course, you are entitled to wish they were doing more. Even I wish they were doing more now that it is becoming apparent that some of the sectarian contention is coming our way. I'm not a fan of fundamentalist Islam for the same reasons I'm not a fan of fundamentalist Christianity or any other "fundamentalized" world religion. They're based on dogmatic adherence to myth, usually poorly understood to begin with. Fundamentalists of all kinds should be dealt with (and I don't mean violently).
Oh, I'm aware of the talkers. What I've never, ever read about is a group of Muslims actually doing something along the lines of what I suggest. Even the Jordanian street protests a year or so ago, which I hailed as a great step forward, only happened because Zarqawi finally blew up a bunch of Jordanians instead of Iraqis. But I'll take what I can get.

-dale
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Old 02-16-2007, 17:34 PM   #243 (permalink)
sirpuddingfoot
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Originally Posted by dalem View Post
... then what? And Congress has no responsibility regarding war except for controlling the money. They have no qualification or input in strategy.
Perhaps that is why congress is beginning to discuss revoking or limiting funds. Bush has had unfettered access to do what he wishes and he hasn't even given congress reason to believe he is capable of succeeding. His bull-headed policy of "staying the course" made him a lame duck. Then, instead of making significant changes to his strategy and soliciting assistance, suggestions, etc. from others (not necessarily congress mind you), he made the decision to do the opposite of what everyone (well most people) hoped for and 'reinforce' his previous actions (his old 'course').


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I did read it a few times. I still get a message of "reverse-illegitimacy" from your words, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm just being thick-headed.
It was legalized/legitimized, though for the wrong reasons. The U.S. destroyed a country over unsubstantiated evidence and vagueries. Under the authorization of the President to use armed forces, he need only provide:
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SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq;
with the only qualification that:
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(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION.
In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon there after as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, and
(2) acting pursuant to this resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
Subjectivity entered the equation. Congress was stupid to have passed it. But, wanting to appear strong on national defense, it was passed. He need only say "I believe that (1) and (2)," to receive the free ticket to war. How unbelievably stupid.

The legitimacy of the war is tenuous at best precisely because congress was too childishly afraid to stand up to boorish stupidity for purely political purposes.


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Ahh, well you may believe it was wrong but that doesn't make it "illegitimate".
Like I said above, it was legitimized, at least in the eyes of the law. But that doesn't make it good or right.

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Hardly bandying - I just like to see real criticisms, not fake ones. I know too many people who are interested in debating or discussing things that simply never happened, or are not factual. Because there are real problems and situations that need to be discussed I don't support wasting a single second talking about the fake ones.
You're right. I apologize for lashing out. Nit-picking is something I enjoy as much as it appears you do

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Oh, I'm aware of the talkers. What I've never, ever read about is a group of Muslims actually doing something along the lines of what I suggest. Even the Jordanian street protests a year or so ago, which I hailed as a great step forward, only happened because Zarqawi finally blew up a bunch of Jordanians instead of Iraqis. But I'll take what I can get.

-dale
Like I've said, you're perfectly entitled to not be content with what they are doing (talking) or how they go about changing things, but to say none are doing anything at all simply because you haven't heard of anything is an over-generalization.

Last edited by sirpuddingfoot : 02-16-2007 at 17:37 PM.
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